Water pump alternatives

[Nortonash]

I am (as always) planning my next project, it involves a Commander based engine but I dont want to use the big bulky water pump. What would be a practical, reliable alternative ? I was thinking perhaps an electric pump rather than a mechanical type. I know some modern cars use electric pumps so I would assume reliability isnt really an issue. Any thoughts ?

[Richard Negus]

Like this, you mean?

Leccy pump.JPG

And a 50 amp generator like this?

114.JPG

And, eventually, a Yamaha R1 rad like this?

R1 Radiator.jpg

This was mine, but crappy knees couldn't cope with the weight.R.

[Richard Negus]

Sorry, brain fade.Pump is Davies Craig (Oz) EWP80 plus electronic controller which, amongst other things, keep the pump running for a short while after ignition 'off' to stop after-boil.Don't go for the smaller pump manufactured by DC, Bosch, and others; it's flow rate is too small, and intended to keep circulation going in water-cooled automotive turbos.The bits in the above post were part of this:

Wozmybike.JPG

R.

[Nortonash]

Thanks Richard, I was going to say it looked like a Davies Craig pump, one of the few things we still make in Australia That makes it very easy with the model number.I also like the idea of the remore generator as it means less sticking out the side of the bike.Thanks again Richard

[johnbirchjar]

I have to admit, that on the odd occasion that I got to look at the cooling system on Richards Commander it did look the buisness,definitly the way to go,'cos I've been led to believe that the Norton system is a bit of an Achilies heel.Have you fitted your system to other Commanders or F1's Richard?J.B.

[Nortonash]

Yes the standard Commander water pump is definitely a weakness. The F1 pump seems to be a big improvement.

[Richard Negus]

John,As it was my own bike, I was able to experimant with the cooling system.The first small pump was a neater installation and kept the engine temperature under control up to about 90 mph. The bigger pump and alloy rad was good for all speeds.The generator system worked fine first time.The F1 pump drive is totally trouble-free, but is the wrong rotation for a Commander. However, I have a Hinckley Triumph pump which looks like an F1 item, but is the correct rotation for the Commander. A welding/machining mod the the primary cover, the sprocket nut and drive coupling from an F1, and bingo! - a decent pump and lubricated drive.R.

[Nortonash]

Funnily enough I have a Triumph pump from the first gen bikes and I was thinking the same thing.

[Richard Negus]

Great minds etc.. The plumbing might be somewhat convoluted, but a bit simpler without the thermostat.R.

[Dell Boy]

My modification incorporating an outrigger bearing in the impeller cover is to date working well. Now covered 1,400 miles with no issues.Derek F.

[spondonash]

I mostly dont want to use the original water pump because it is bulky and wont fit behind the fairing, dodgy reliability is also a big factor though.

[Richard Negus]

Hi Ash,Do you have an identity problem? R.

[spondonash]

Oh bugger, I couldnt remember my original log in details so had to rejoin recently, then as soon as I had joined I found my original log in. Do you think you could just delete the new account please?

[Charles Wilson]

Don't forget "The Ol' Site" and the W/C engine with the strange pump:http://www.nortonmotors.co.uk/Prototypes%205.htmCW

[Wayne]

Hi allthe race team used a rotax pump om the commander based rcw, mounted in two differant positions relative to the thermal bypass the early way was for rads in parrelel and later on the rads were in serieshowever when i removed the primary cover, how not to drive anything nevermind a water pump, definatly not how the race team did it. the pins catch on the front engine sprocket nut, the pins have a very corse thread on the contact part and would wear rapidly contaminating the primary oil. If (in my opinon when) a pin broke off it could brake the primary chain damaging the right hand end plate ect.How not to drive the pump, as fitted by bodjit and scarperRegards Wayne

[Nortonash]

Hi Wayne, why on earth would someone have set it up like that ? It is almost like a temporary 'get home' kind of bodge until they could do something permanent.

[Richard Negus]

Wayne,Didn't the RCW have a tang ground onto the r/h end of the shaft for an Oldham coupling to that pump? The last time I repaired one of those Rotax pumps, I was told by the Rotax parts distributor that the main bits were NLA. As that was at least four years ago, the situation might have improved now.R.

[Nortonash]

Yes they did Richard, unfortunately I sold my brand new Rotax pump with my race bike years ago, it would be an alternative for my special. Having said that I think the electric pump tucked up above the engine is a better solution.

[Wayne]

Hi ash Richardi have seen the proper works drive, i belive i have the tang on my spair works ecentric shafts, the femail part is belived to be a race team part. The Dunbars used the ones that came with the rotax pumps, which from duncans discripton were differant to the race teams part. its for this reason i need a big gearbox i could then disgard this engine to sort out later for my own prototype f1 frame and put a full works rcw engine with direct oil feeds to the rotor bearings in the rcwOne of the Rcws in the museum has a lightend commander waterpump housing to carry a genorator only (possibly for the tt, but thats my geuss), the bulk shape of the housing is there and its fitted with a 1990 rcw faring. by the way Marks rcw has the rotax pump and a air coold cover fitted for positioning the genorator, its a very tidy job.Well you have answered one question, thats not the primary cover/pump you sent with the bike. by any chance did it also have 6mm ap clalipers not the 4mm versions on 6mm disks!! and a race dymag wheel not the road dymag as i have discoverd it now has.one point worth noting ash the collector box, if you are going the rcw route its a 4-1/2 diamiter x 12", theres some 304 exhaust tube of this diamiter on ebay. tube in this size is rare unless you roll your own. the tube needs to be this size to fit between the headersRegards Wayne

[Nortonash]

Wayne, it could possibly have been that primary cover and pump but the pump was new and still in the box, not fitted. From memory there were no discs with the bike when I sent it over. The Dymag on the bike was a race item as far as I know.

[Wayne]

Hi ash so i now know who did, ash if you want a laugh ring spondon ask for stuart then ask him his profesional opinion of how the bike was put together with a mismash of parts ect. i also feel the previous owner was hud winked as he paid for the work, as i was indirectly. The previous owner was told to book a track day as the bike was finished less the carbs setting up, the rider would have been a current racer, lucky for him it was canceld, the same person told me it just needed the carbs doing , and refused to start the bike up for me to ride round the car park as me an the owner agreed. I would have noticed 90 persent of the crap workmanship. As Spondon said when i have finished it will be a very nice bike, but without my collection race parts and my compeat rc chassis to work out whats what and how it sould be i would have been stuffed, also the help off others both on and of this forum was indispencerble. Regards Wayne