IP2 Hydraulic clutch

[gripper]

Does the hydraulic clutch conversion to the IP2/Commander/Classic bear any ressemblance to any jap bike part that could be modified to fit? It seems that hydraulic clutches are pretty standard on modern bikes and with the trend to make things smaller and lighter, there must be something out there suitable for the job, even if you have to carve a donor gearbox cover away to get at what you need.Gripper

[rustynuts]

No, the rotary clutch configuration is unique as far as I have seen. Unlike most motorcycle designs where the cylinder is locted on the opposite side of the gearbox to the clutch and actuates it via a push rod through the hollow gear shaft, the rotary employs a pull rod actuated by the mechanism in the primary cover outboard of the clutch. Therefore, the slave cylinder has to lift the actuator rod rather than push it. To use a standard clutch cylinder would require the fabrication of a linkage mechanism which would not fit inside the primary cover. Much easier to shell out for the real thing, except for the fact that there are none available at the moment. However, I spoke to Pete Morris at NML a few weeks ago. They are considering manufacturing another batch of cylinders. This time it will be supply only for fitting yourself, rather than a complete exchange primary cover. If you want one, register your interest with NML.

[andygbsmith]

Hi, out of interest has anyone tried the Magura hydraulic clutch conversion.It is a hydraulic mastercylinder line and slave but the slave cylinder pulls as opposed to pushing, it is designed to use a small length of cable at the end, for the operation of the clutch arm. Mainly off road bikes but also Harley and Buell application.It is german made and good quality.Kits start around £100 and give about 25/30 % reduction in lever effort.I was going to fit one to my Bevel Duacati when I get time.Andy

[gripper]

The system you describe Andy, might make the effort at the handlebar lever easier. But in addition, what the rotaries require is a bit more lift to ensure separation of the plates. The current system of three balls has little or no scope for increasing the lift. My old Bantam had a helical lifting mechanism but any increase in lift using a mechanical system will increase handlebar lever pressure. I might try and turn up a little slave cylinder on my myford that will allow a lifting screw to run through the middle. ie. a hollow top hat shaped piston running through a body, with the pressure operating on the.......... too difficult to explain, it's in my head. Any photos of the official NML conversion around?

[MrB]

Hydraulic kit is not available?? But I was going to fit one this winter! Rats. If Peter reads this then set one aside for me if you get some knocked up please. I had considered one option for increased lift, that being lift plates with a steeper angled countersink. A steeper ramp should give more lift for the same turning angle. Should also result in a heavier clutch. The clutch is pretty light if the cable is routed well so I had figured it wouldn't be too awful. Has it been tried? Too heavy? How much more lift is required for good clearance?Johnny

[Malc]

Just a bit of food for thought on this if the hydraulic conversions are not available for a while,If the lift is increased, there is a real risk of the pressure plate fouling the clutch cover as there is minimal clearance unless this is also machined.There are 2 types of lift mechanism, the earlier being bright steel and the later dark 'jappanned' type. most are of the later type now but some bikes were not modyfied, so worth a check.There is also a mod that involves fitting half a retaining circlip between the diaphrgam spring and the circlip itself. This is a proven mod as it has been used on T.Ps bike for over 468,000 miles without problem.Malc

[MrB]

I'm away from home Malc so I can't see the manual or the bike, but from memory I can't picture how this mod would increase clutch lift. I can see it increasing spring pressure on the plates but not clutch lift. Good point to note on the clutch cover, thanks. I have the dark (blued?) lift mechanism by the way so no further imorvement available there.Johnny.

[Richard Negus]

Hi All, PC sorted and back on-line again ! No anti-virus makes it quicker - but when it's screwed, its SCREWED !The ring/washer between the circlip and diaphragm spring changes the attitude of the fitted spring, making it slightly flatter, and reduces spring load (really!) and hence handlebar lever load. It does reduce the clamping load on the plates but not enough to cause clutch slip.I designed the hydraulic conversion to take out the variables in the cable clutch system :. production variations in cam shapes giving different 'feel' to clutches. wear in the cam detents causing reduced lift. friction in the cable. broken cables. more lift vs lever movementSeveral different combinations of cylinder diameters were tried before a balance between lever load and plate clearance was arrived at; at no time, even with high-lift / high lever load cylinders, did the pressure plate touch the inside of the primary cover.Early cable lift plates were not heat-treated; later ones were, I think, nitro-carburised to give a hard skin. In both cases the balls initially deformed the surface to create their own track and lift was lost. It was suggested that 10mm balls were better, but I don't know why. It could be that they produced a wider track and wore less quickly.If Peter can be persuaded to produce the piston and cylinders, I can do an exchange service on primary covers. If there are enough people prepared to make a commitment (= deposit) I will order a batch via Peter and progress the complete job.

[Dell Boy]

I would be interested in a Hydraulic clutch depending on how much it would be. I tried the halve a diaphragm spring mod a couple of years ago & found no discernible difference. The clutch was still rubbish!! As well as the lack of lift I feel that because the engine "spins on" when you shut the throttle making it very difficult to match engine speed to gearbox/road speed also contributes to the changeing gear battle with a dragging clutch. Does the hydraulic conversion give more lift? Also how do you stop the inner plates glueing themselves together? What about a dry clutch or a centrifugal clutch ala Vincent. On my Vincent 30 years ago I took the dry multi plate Norton clutch which dragged like a b.....d due to lack of lift that some whalley had fitted & replaced it with a orIginal single plate centrifugal Vincent clutch which does not slip or drag & can be lifted with a single finger. Maybe a new approach to clutch design is required rather than tinker with the old one? Derek.

[Richard Negus]

Hi Derek,I am of course biased so my recommendation of the conversion is worthless. Perhaps others who've experienced both cable and hydraulic on the same bike will venture opinions.However, I have it on my own bike (with old plates and 10W-40 oil) and I can snick in and out of neutral, hot or stone cold, without a sound, admittedly only 5,600 miles since it was rebuilt.BSA/Triumph triples have a single-plate diaphragm spring but still the rubber-in-compression damper; I always found them a bit 'sudden' in take-up, slow to change, and heavy at the lever.Modern multiplate clutches are very soft in take-up and light even with cable operation. Grafting one of those in may be possible, doing it for yourself to keep the costs sensible. They tend however to be longer than the Norton item and might need the primary cover spacing out. (Hmmm - winter project ?)A dry primary drive is not an option on the Norton as all models require lubrication for the starter drive and the IP2 / Commander also require lubrication for the axial bearing on the eccentric shaft.R.

[MrB]

I too am interested and would like to proceed subject to knowing the cost.J.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi guys,am I missing something,?if a little more lift is all that is required to free up the rear clutch plates,and room is not a problem,could 3 larger ball bearings not be fitted? or would this make the handlebar leaver to heavy? Regards J.B.

[rustynuts]

You would need modified plates too to match the larger ball bearings.Lift is determined by the ramp on the plates. Larger balls on their own would just give a greater initial offset. They would probably give less lift as the larger radius would not fit in the track properly so wouldn't engage with the full length of the ramp.

[Malc]

Hydraulic clutches will be better for the reasons Richard gives but having trouble selecting nuetral was never a problem with the fleet I used to look after.The only time selecting nuetral was a problem was when the plates ( or just 2 plates) were sticking together.The clutches were then stripped and cleaned and the plated oiled on assembly and fresh 15w/40 used. Once re-adjusted (and with a good cable)selecting nuetral was not a problem. These bikes were being used in extreme circumstances sometimes on escort duty but the riders never complained about selecting nuetral.Only enough lift is needed to clear, any more is wasted lever movement or pressure.On the red race bike the ramps ground down to give less lift and a smoother operation with the standard cable routed with gentle curves to get rid of the excess length when using lower bars. If the cable is not routed correctly, the 'feel' can be altered then adjustments are made to the clutch when it is a cable problem.One bike I looked at at Stanford Hall some years back had this problem but there was loads of free play at the lever causing the problem. The rider did not like the 'feel' when adjusted correctly as he said he had short fingers so I suggested to try and find a dog leg lever to replace the existing one. Dont know if he ever did.

[Malc]

If you have larger balls they only hit the tank under heavy braking!

[TRL]

If you have larger balls they only hit the tank under heavy braking!

ouch then don't brake so hard

[Howell]

Hello,I thought I would share my experience of these clutch mechanisms/dragging/poor neutral selection.My Commander was awful in this respect, much worse than my interpol. I decided that the dog-leg lever was constraining lift, so I have fitted an interpol lever which imrproved the situation greatly, although still not the complete fix. It is necessary to mill or cut and file a slot in the lever bracket to accept a little locater(made from a piece of ally) to stop the switchear rotating when operating the choke. You get a far nicer adjuster and bellows as well, so it's all good news.A conversation with Pete Morris about this was interesting, as he said that the clutch plates take a conical "set" over time due to the pressure of the diaphragm spring. His advice was, if you remove the plates to replace them as they came out! My Commander, with 24,000 miles under it's belt since a rebuild is now behaving as it should clutchwise, and neutral is now easily selected.This supports Peter's view I think.Regards,Howell

[commando-rotary]

Hi fella's, When I first put my commander on the the road neutral was impossible to find and in fact any gearchange was painful on the foot. I have de'glazed the sintered plates by gently sand blasting them and built everything back up to the book including adjustments etc and put 5/30 oil in the primary. The gear change is now one of the best I have ever used, as previously stated it is very important to route the clutch cable as smoothly as possible and then it is very light . DG.

[commando-rotary]

thought I'd cracked it but during the colombres jaunt my clutch is dragging again and I cannot get neutral most of the time when stationary, if anybody has any other ideas I will gladly give anything a try the problem is (I think) not the amount of lift but stiction on the plates.D G

[MrB]

I've mentioned this elsewhere and so won't repeat too much, but I'm now on brand new (!) plates and replaced the rotor oil seal as I believed the oil seal was letting by. I ran it on ATF thinking that would do a reasonable job of carrying away particulates from the clutch plate surfaces whilst bedding in. A reasonable clutch after reassembly but again it degenerated over about 1000 miles so it was stripped for cleaning (yet again).This time I've tried Mobil 1 5/30 and I think it has made an appreciable improvement over any other oil I've tried - and I've tried a lot! Clutch appears better cold than hot but I haven't clocked up enough miles to come to a firm view. Give Mobil 1 a try, draining and refilling after a 100 miles or so to flush out remnants on old oil.My tuppence worth on lift (or lack of it). The plates I took out had differing degrees of warp, some were good, some were awful. As the lift is slight it won't take much warping to cause drag. Second thought is that there may not be enough lift to allow the oil to flush particulates away enough remain in place which add to drag (or is that thought just a load of rubbish?) Johnny

[gripper]

The oil is only in there to lube the chain. There won't be a flow of oil between the plates and the only time it will move away from the plates is when the clutch is lifted and centrifugal force sends it to the outer edge of the clutch drum but no further than that. you could try putting in only the barest minimum to allow the chain to dip in. I've heard of Commando owners putting paraffin in their chaincases to rinse the oil away from the plates rather than strip and clean. It's a bit gash (petrol is even more gash and a serious fire risk)Dave E

[commando-rotary]

Thanks boys for your input I have just stripped my primary drive and it seems that the mainshaft seal is leaking allowing gearbox oil in, any clutch is going to drag with that in it. So it's of to buy a new seal and see how that does. By the way dave the oil feeds the tensioner as well, and there is some holes in the clutch basket which should allow oil to be flung out but I would imagine gear oil is too thick to pass through.regards D G

[Interpol2471]

Dave let me know the part number as I may have a seal I can send to you I have loads of oil seals but I cannot promise but it will only cost a cup of tea when I see you nest. Paul

[commando-rotary]

Hi Paul, seal number is 55-0421 and the spacer it runs on which i should replace if poss is69-0651. I would pm you with my address if i knew how to in the meantime my email is jd.green@live.co.ukregards D G

[Interpol2471]

No problem Dave I will cehck tommorrow evening what seals I have Paul

[Interpol2471]

Dave I have those oil seals but not the spacer. Let me know you details again via email and I will get the wife to pop that in the post for you.Paul

[commando-rotary]

Many thanks paul seal arrived this morning now busy putting bike together D G

[Interpol2471]

No problem Dave see you at Popham

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Guys,I remember a couple of years back Del Boy telling me that he had changed the primary chain oil to power stearing fluid,so I followed suit,vast improvment on all aspects of gear change,regards,J.B.

[Roberto]

I am testing a simple method of lifting the clutch. It is similar to the way a tyre lifts a vehicle off the ground. I have made a flat plate that fills the full diameter of the opening under the outer cover and have wound a spiral of silicone rubber tube in behind the plate. I have sealed the inner end of the tube so it is very securely stoppered. I have fitted a union at the point where the cable came into the case and joined the spiral of tube on the inside. From the union on the clutch cover I have a piece of aeroquip hose to my master cylinder. When the tube and brake master cylinder is filled with silicone fluid and the lever is applied, the rubber tube swells up pushing against the plate lifting it. It works like a bordon guage in reverse. Until I have the rest of the engine back together, I can only say I think it works. It certainly gives effortless lift. In theory it should be very efficient and cheap to make/service. It has no nasty pistons to rust and seals to wear.