Lovely Commander for sale

[Interpol2471]

My old Commander is for sale at Classic Superbikes in Fleet.
Totally original to the parts book multiple new parts, rebuilt carbs and
brand new water pump seals etc. Running perfectly and a lovely bike.
I have loads of spares too. I would ring him quick as I believe it is
already being viewed.
Paul

https://www.classicsuperbikes.co.uk/cat ... der-3.html

[Interpol2471]

Can I just say this is not the cheapest bike ever apparently someone has advised a price without even seeing it!!!!
I have spent a lot of time and effort making this a perfect running and to the factory parts list as I could. Anyone who knows me knows this will be a perfect riders bike. The carbs are fully overhauled with all new parts set perfectly, the water pump overhauled with all brand new factory parts even things like new fog light switches fitted. Absolutely genuine bike with factory books and keyring not a hack in fact I am a bit annoyed that someone is being clever and doesn't know the facts....

[Interpol2471]

The engine is lovely too runs and starts hot cold or anything inbetween idles 500rpm oh and clutch is absolutely rebuilt to perfection. I have spend ages on this bike for myself but weight was just too much for me now.

[johnbirchjar]

Knowing you as I do Paul I expect the bike absolutely top notch,but even so, eight grand ,J.B.

[Interpol2471]

JB remember the one in the mag the other month ...non runner rusty as hell etc sold 5K

[Interpol2471]

Sold sorry

[johnbirchjar]

Well done you .
I trust you are still riding a smaller,lighter bike?J.B.

[Interpol2471]

Oh yes JB just restoring a 1939 Scott Sqiurrel high performance TT special for me and still rotating with the French Advancer

[johnbirchjar]

Lucky old you ,I bet that Scot sounds just like rotary on full song . The French Advancer isn't ringing any bell's though,have fun and SVF,J.B.

[Interpol2471]

I did a little write up on the French many years ago when I was looking for it. It was thought to be in Australia but in fact it was locked Way in Folkestone in a damp garage sine 1981.

I will do another write up for the mag and RealClassic mag soon.

Here is the MCN picture from 1972.

[johnbirchjar]

The engine looks a bit like the DKW/Hercules?J.B.

[kanonkopdrinker]

Correct, John.

Another Fichtel & Sachs engine.

David

[Charles Wilson]

Hmmm...

Another shaft drive, it appears.
I've heard that the original prototype of the Hercules was a shaft drive (from a BMW) but I've seen no pictures of such a beast.

Another road less traveled.

CW

PS: There are still those in the RE-5 Camp who wonder what would have been if the RE-5 had been a shaft drive. Several projects were started using the GS-850. There is a Belt Drive that made it to the streets.

[johnbirchjar]

Would a shaft drive made all that much difference to an already complicated bit of kit? ,J.B.

[Charles Wilson]

Ahhh...Remember when:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... VhNDBlNTcx

Shaft Drive made a difference in that different age. Read the Intro to the MG, esp.
I have a soft spot in my heart for the V-50, even if I passed up the Deal of the Century when I had the chance to get one.
A small shaft drive bike would be nice.

A small Rotary shaft drive motorcycle would be twice as nice.

CW

[Charles Wilson]

http://britbiker.org/?p=631

[Charles Wilson]

Would a shaft drive [have] made all that much difference to an already complicated bit of kit?

I usually try not to muck-up a Thread but since the "Lovely Commander" has been sold, I want to answer at least part of this good question.

I don't think we'll ever know the fine details of Suzuki's Deal with the NSU Licensing Legal Department. There are so many stories of Suzuki almost going Belly-Up from the RE-5 Chapter and it's hard to know the truth. Do I need to Cross-Reference this with the Norton Rotary Story? Do I have that much time in my life? The bottom line is that both motorcycles were produced - finally.

Anyway, part of the RE-5 License package had to have been the Solex-to-Mikuni carburetor: "We'll license the KKM-502 motor and the current basket of "Good Practices" knowledge. The engine you build will be bullet proof". Mikuni had licensed Solex carbs and the HHD 18-32 carb was "Off the Shelf". "Mikuni has the carb, you supply the cables..."
https://ateupwithmotor.com/model-histor ... 0-history/ Go to p. 4 and you'll see TWO of the Solex carbs darkening the engine bay of the NSU.

Despite the rotary’s apparent simplicity, long-term testers soon complained that the KKM 612 could be frustratingly difficult to keep in proper tune. If the twin Solex carburetors were even slightly out of adjustment, the result would be hesitation and flat spots, which took a fine touch to correct.

"OMG!", he said with sadness. There it is. The complexity of this one item was repeated over-and-over with the RE-5. The RE-5 simply HAD to have this complex piece of hardware in order to work properly. Well...No. The original dual-points (From Comotor?) were dropped in the 1976 RE-5A (My Bike!) but countless trees were harvested to provide paper for the latest Carb Sync Bulletin that came from Suzuki. It was so unnecessary. I must assume that the License mandated the HHD 18-32 carb.

I could spend another large amount of time on the OIl-Cooled Rotor but it did work and had solid Big-Time R&D behind it. Meanwhile, there was this Norton Company that was wound up but had this gorgeous solution to the Rotor cooling problem and...
"OMG", he said with much sadness.

In short, I believe that it didn't have to be that way. Suzuki recovered and produced the GS-750, which was very popular. They punched it out to an 850, added shaft drive and, if the motorcycle press was to be believed, produced one the nicest touring bikes ever made. Would the RE-5 have been a success if it had been shaft drive? It's more than a little bit possible. The GS-850 came a few years after the RE-5. Perhaps the thought of a shaft drive Rotary wasn't around in the early 1970s, when the Licensing discussions were being held. The thought of a KKM-612 Twin Rotor motorcycle was in some corporate minds and it would have been shaft drive.

The RE-5 didn't have to have that "complexity". Despite it all, mine provided me with huge amounts of fun and I was in no way "kind" to it. It was indeed bullet proof. If you read the "Eight for the Road" article carefully, you'll note that "Other Group" - The Tourers - and their respect for shaft drive. We get to today and what do we find? One very popular line today is the SV V-Twin Suzuki. Small, light, one of the best handling bikes ever built - and what was one of the sub-currents with owners through the years? "Why doesn't Suzuki produce a Belt Drive version?"

So, yes, a small shaft drive Rotary would be a wonderful sight to behold.
Complexity? Did you ever read about what Norton did with their Rotary?

Thanx all.

CW

[johnbirchjar]

I believe someone developed it into a very successful drone/light aircraft engine ,J.B.

[Charles Wilson]

I believe someone developed it into a very successful drone/light aircraft engine.

1. Right you are, J.B. and I can think of a few of my unsavory neighbors who might benefit from an aerial visit from...well, let's move on... Very Happy

2. I keep looking at the French Advancer and there is something very interesting. I have never seen a picture of the Original Prototype of the Hercules W2000 but I have read about it:

https://silodrome.com/hercules-w2000-ro ... e-history/

"Fichtel & Sachs decided to call their first Wankel engine motorcycle the Hercules W2000 and they showed the prototype at the 1970 West Cologne Autumn Motorcycle Show: that prototype featuring a shaft drive and four speed gearbox from a BMW R27 that would not be used on the production model..."

I looked up a picture of the BMW R27:



Well, lookee here. Compare the rear drives of the Advancer with the R27. Sorta' a Family Resemblance, kinda. Mebbe more than a little bit.

SAY!...You don't suppose that...

CW

PS: I was trying to also add the picture of the Advancer referenced above but I am only allowed 2 URLs per Post. *Sigh*

[Assen]

The BMW R27? I ride and own one from 1977. Very very Comfortable bike. The engine is rubber mounted wich helps a lot. And ultra reliable.
Only 2 less good points of the bike, is that it is slow and the gear change is a bit agricultural.
The gear changing of old BMW's is very easy though, once you discover the trick.

Jannes

[kanonkopdrinker]

Yep, the gearbox / shaft-drive of the R27 looks just like that of the prototype W2000.

My information is that Hercules originally wanted to have all W2000s with shaft-drive using a similar arrangement, but problems occurred with agreeing a deal with BMW. Hercules had wanted to produce one of their own manufacture, while BMW are said to have insisted in being the producer.

The end result was a chain final-drive gearbox produced by Hercules, using a lot of Rotax internals.

David

[Charles Wilson]

1. Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Don't know why the smiley didn't take on my JOKE about Droning neighbors but - There you go. I hit "Preview" and everything. Oh, well.

2. Thanx to all. I've learned a lot. That's why I come to this Site. It's a lot better than the "Make a Better Chicken Casserole" Site.

3.

Is Ol' Colin French still kickin' ? The question is out there: Did Fichtel and Sachs take the Advancer and make a Better Bike around the Basic Advancer Home Built Shell? Sure does look like it. Perhaps we could ask him down at the home. Or Fichtel & Sachs. At the same time, I stand amazed at the story here. F&S and BMW are pissin' in each other's soup over Manufacturing Rights for a Drive Shaft Configuration? I realize that Drive shafts were only invented a coupla' weeks before the 1970 Show smiley but C'Mon Folks!

"Sehen sie sich, we're gonna have a 5 speed anyway, why not just design a Shaft Drive of our own?
"Oh...We can't do that..."
"...HUH?!??"
All to beat Suzuki by a coupla' weeks to be "The First?"

"Does anyone ever want to make a dollar in this world?"
(See Also: "Norton Motorcycles - Wankel Licensing".)

4. There may be another RE-5 story with this. I've Posted - somewhere - a piece on the Original RE-5 Prototype. The US is mandating a left-side shifter for all motorcycles in the mid 70s. The entire right side of the RE-5 is screaming "Designed in Europe". Suzuki had to design a cross-over shaft to achieve this US Mandate. The splined shifter shaft simply sat in a hole drilled so the spline could slide through the left side of the gearbox. The seal for this shaft never worked and oil was always leaking on the left side. This in addition to the Chain Luber on the 1975 Model. "'N why was there a kick-starter for the RE-5?" Kick-Starters were being phased out at Suzuki and: "Have you ever tried to kick-Start an RE-5?"
My starters blew up when the Sprag Clutches locked (Plural). Wanna get rich? Try finding THAT part. I ended up with a right hip being replaced and I blame it on the RE-5 kick-starter.

Something else went on that right side...I wonder what it was.

5. It was not a pretty sight and my Psychiatrist will attest to that. He got a new BMW out of our sessions. BMW never produced a Rotary.
"Would the Hercules have had more sales if it had been shaft drive?"

Hell, I dunno. Would Suzuki?

Again, Thanx All.

CW

[johnbirchjar]

Digressing only slightly ,Did I read somewhere that the M.O.D.had a Battle Tank on trial way back in the '90's that had a absolutely humongous Rotory diesel installed(I think the Challenger had about a 27ltr lump in it ) that went like stink,but was horrendously thirsty (no surprise there then )J.B.
PS,just had a quick "surf"and the Challenger had a 26.1ltr Perkins Diesel fitted,SVF,J

[Interpol2471]

Mick Whitlock the famous frame builder has the original drawings for me if the frame and he is looking for Colin to finish the search full circle. A rare interesting and wonderful machine in rotary history

[Charles Wilson]

https://www.der-wankelmotor.de/Motoraed ... cules.html

At last, a picture of the Original Hercules W2000 from the Display Stand. Lots of detail to look at.
Lots of detail to think about.

What could have been.

[Interpol2471]

Blessed copy cats lol.

Mind you never worked out why I still have the hand change as I can't even reach it lol

[Charles Wilson]

1. Google Translate of the German description of the W2000:

"Prototype of the entire W 2000 series, was first presented in October 1970 at the IFMA (International Motorcycle and Bicycle Exhibition) in Cologne. The machine is equipped with the gearbox and cardan shaft of the BMW R27, which, however, was too expensive for series production. An adapted SACHS KM 914 stationary engine was used as the engine. Location: Deutsches Museum München, in future the Center for Industrial Culture Nuremberg"

2.

Mind you never worked out why I still have the hand change as I can't even reach it

You're supposed to use the hand that's growing out out of the inside of your right ankle. Everybody knows that!
BTW, the Harley crowd had to deal with that decades ago. They were called "Suicide Clutches": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_clutch
Of course, you can still buy one from the Aftermarket.

"No one understands Harley People". Don't get me started...

3. I PM'd our Esteemed Poster johnbirchjar with this picture already but everyone else might enjoy it as well. There were several "Giant Rotaries" manufactured through the years. One of them was the Rolls Royce Dual Supercharged Diesel. then again there's this:



My guess is that no one's gonna make a Home-Built with this one.