Hello to the 588 community
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Hello to the 588 community
My name is Jérôme Sfartz, living close to Paris, France and I am glad to join this technical community.
In 2014 I bought a Rotary Classic, LE 043, brand new, from a British gentleman Mr Clark.
Before my acquisition, the motorcycle was overhauled under Mr Negus authority.
I am coming quite late to the use of the motorcycle since it was a real nightmare to register in FRANCE !!!
At last I had to wait for her to get antique collectable status in 2018, but is has been only in 2020 that I could get her registered.
I will tale the story in another post, but you may guys not be be interested. Just lest me know.
I will also come to you later for getting some help since the motorcycle gives me starting problems (due to use of <RES/ON/PRI> petrol tap which compared to my very trivial commando petrol tap ? ...) and stalling when hot (at around 130° temp reading degrees)
PS: please be indulgent with my "froggy" writings.
In 2014 I bought a Rotary Classic, LE 043, brand new, from a British gentleman Mr Clark.
Before my acquisition, the motorcycle was overhauled under Mr Negus authority.
I am coming quite late to the use of the motorcycle since it was a real nightmare to register in FRANCE !!!
At last I had to wait for her to get antique collectable status in 2018, but is has been only in 2020 that I could get her registered.
I will tale the story in another post, but you may guys not be be interested. Just lest me know.
I will also come to you later for getting some help since the motorcycle gives me starting problems (due to use of <RES/ON/PRI> petrol tap which compared to my very trivial commando petrol tap ? ...) and stalling when hot (at around 130° temp reading degrees)
PS: please be indulgent with my "froggy" writings.
Regards.
Jérôme
Jérôme
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Hi Jerome,
Welcome to the club .
At 130deg's,seems like your Classic is running a bit warm,(if memory servs my old Classic used to run at 100&110)even so,it still shouldn't stall,what is the engine idle speed set at?( should be between 800&1000rpm.)rgds,J.B.
Welcome to the club .
At 130deg's,seems like your Classic is running a bit warm,(if memory servs my old Classic used to run at 100&110)even so,it still shouldn't stall,what is the engine idle speed set at?( should be between 800&1000rpm.)rgds,J.B.
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Thank you John for your concern.
In fact the engine has a rev idle @850 - @900. It should be OK so far.
New NGK C8E spark plugs (as recommended by Mr. Negus)
I may face difficulties to start the engine:
When "hot", i.e. 130°C
I read the following post from Mr. G. Wilshaw "Interpol 2 retard boxes"
Could my problem be linked to this related observation?
In fact the engine has a rev idle @850 - @900. It should be OK so far.
New NGK C8E spark plugs (as recommended by Mr. Negus)
I may face difficulties to start the engine:
- When "cold" (even with very mild weather; 25°C - 28°C), I have to put choke on quite for a while, decreasing pulling at about 10' ! weird or usual?
- Meantime Rev Counter does not run for long time, and then finishes to give idling information.
- I get confused with use of <RES / ON / PRI> petrol tap (first time I face such a situation in 50 yrs of biking ...).
what to do ?- put <PRI> at first and then flip to <ON> ? But how long (same interrogation on "hot" start) ?
- When "hot", it may fail to start going to empty battery (this when about 130° C reading)
When "hot", i.e. 130°C
- No way to put hand on inlet manifolds.
- Electrical connectors (2) run alongside LH side inlet manifold.
Is it nominal or has it to be fit another way ?
- Electrical connectors (2) run alongside LH side inlet manifold.
- After stalling within traffic jam for example - emptying battery as I told previously, I cannot start again since temp decreases down to a 60°C - 50°C (with some help of an extra boosting battery)
I read the following post from Mr. G. Wilshaw "Interpol 2 retard boxes"
Could my problem be linked to this related observation?
Regards.
Jérôme
Jérôme
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
OK' re: fuel tap,
In all the 70,000 miles and 30years of ownership I VERY rarely used the "pri",left the tap all the time on "run",and only used the "res" when I actually ran out of fuel!(but in my defence I was getting the "miles per gallon" on "full on main" and then "reserve to dry" )
The none starting when hot sounds like smeared end plates but a lot more info is required.
You said that the bike was stored from 2014 till 2018? an then again till 2020?who stored it?and most important, whoever did the storing were they "Rotorey Wise"and understood that putting a rotorie away for a long period of time is nothing like a conventional "ICE",and did you start it up occasionally when it was in storage? and eventually registered to you?and if so, did you take all the necessary precautions?because if not this could well be why you are having trouble,sorry if I sound a bit of a doom monger, but I learnt all this the hard(and expensive )way,rgds,J.B.
In all the 70,000 miles and 30years of ownership I VERY rarely used the "pri",left the tap all the time on "run",and only used the "res" when I actually ran out of fuel!(but in my defence I was getting the "miles per gallon" on "full on main" and then "reserve to dry" )
The none starting when hot sounds like smeared end plates but a lot more info is required.
You said that the bike was stored from 2014 till 2018? an then again till 2020?who stored it?and most important, whoever did the storing were they "Rotorey Wise"and understood that putting a rotorie away for a long period of time is nothing like a conventional "ICE",and did you start it up occasionally when it was in storage? and eventually registered to you?and if so, did you take all the necessary precautions?because if not this could well be why you are having trouble,sorry if I sound a bit of a doom monger, but I learnt all this the hard(and expensive )way,rgds,J.B.
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
John B wrote
Thank you for your advice, but I still get confused with the use of it since LE043 cold start does not work on <ON>, at least without choke.
(No explanation within Classic Owner's Manual about <PRI>; only 2 positions fuel tap <RES, ON> description)
I had no opportunity to register before 2020; done yet.
It has been stored in a dry indoor heated garage by me
PS: in comparison to IP 2, is there an Electronic Retard Unit on Classic type, as far I read a post concerning kind of faulty unit strategy by G. Wilshaw ?
Thank you indeed John; sorry not to have taken time for answering.re: fuel tap,
In all the 70,000 miles and 30years of ownership I VERY rarely used the "pri"
Thank you for your advice, but I still get confused with the use of it since LE043 cold start does not work on <ON>, at least without choke.
(No explanation within Classic Owner's Manual about <PRI>; only 2 positions fuel tap <RES, ON> description)
I own the bike since 2014, but was not able to register before 2018 (French "Antique collector" status is at least 30 yrs old)You said that the bike was stored from 2014 till 2018? an then again till 2020?who stored it?
I had no opportunity to register before 2020; done yet.
It has been stored in a dry indoor heated garage by me
Sorry not to get what you wrote (I keep being french; sorry )most important, whoever did the storing were they "Rotorey Wise"and understood that putting a rotorie away for a long period of time is nothing like a conventional "ICE"
Can you give me details ? What precautions ?did you take all the necessary precautions?
PS: in comparison to IP 2, is there an Electronic Retard Unit on Classic type, as far I read a post concerning kind of faulty unit strategy by G. Wilshaw ?
Regards.
Jérôme
Jérôme
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Hi Jerome,
From what I can remember from my Classic(NoLE029)the original Electronic Ignition Unit was the same as the IP2's(but I could be wrong)I distinctly remember because it was so very different from the replacement one from Minimag.
When putting a Norton Rotory in to "long time storage" the procedure I used was to pump lots of 40grade engine oil(which is what I ran the engine on)into the engine (via the spark plug holes)put the plugs back in and slowly turn the engine over by putting the bike in gear and slowly turning the back wheel to liberally smear the engine internals, then every month or so I would turn the engine over using the same method until I was ready to start using the bike again.
The start up procedure I used was to take out the plugs,cover the front mudguard with some old cloth,lots of cloth on the garage floor,and spin the engine over using the starter motor untill the oil stops spraying from the plugholes,wheel the bike out of the garage,new plugs and fire the old girl up, but be warned,LOTS OF SMOKE,and I mean LOTS ,(best warn the neighbours )hope this helps,rgds,J.B.
From what I can remember from my Classic(NoLE029)the original Electronic Ignition Unit was the same as the IP2's(but I could be wrong)I distinctly remember because it was so very different from the replacement one from Minimag.
When putting a Norton Rotory in to "long time storage" the procedure I used was to pump lots of 40grade engine oil(which is what I ran the engine on)into the engine (via the spark plug holes)put the plugs back in and slowly turn the engine over by putting the bike in gear and slowly turning the back wheel to liberally smear the engine internals, then every month or so I would turn the engine over using the same method until I was ready to start using the bike again.
The start up procedure I used was to take out the plugs,cover the front mudguard with some old cloth,lots of cloth on the garage floor,and spin the engine over using the starter motor untill the oil stops spraying from the plugholes,wheel the bike out of the garage,new plugs and fire the old girl up, but be warned,LOTS OF SMOKE,and I mean LOTS ,(best warn the neighbours )hope this helps,rgds,J.B.
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Hi Jerome,
Looking back over your previous entries I noticed your comment on "Not starting on Run without the choke" No surprise there,most petrol engine vehicles that I have owned/driven, usually required "choke"when starting from cold,J.B.
Looking back over your previous entries I noticed your comment on "Not starting on Run without the choke" No surprise there,most petrol engine vehicles that I have owned/driven, usually required "choke"when starting from cold,J.B.
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Thank you very much John for your concern to my questionings.
In the meantime, I checked CLASSIC vs IP2 documentations and if it appears that both machines are provided with E.I.U (thank's God ), IP2 is fitted with Idling Retard Unit whereas Classic is not.
I wonder why, and why it should be mandatory on IP2 since it does not seem to be on CLASSIC.
Coils are 12 volts (Japanese ? I may be wrong) on IP2, wearing iridium spark plugs, whereas it is more "conventional" (I have my Commando as reference in mind) with LUCAS 6 v coils (same as Commando at Andover Norton selling sheets) wearing casual C8E NGK plugs on CLASSIC.
So that my anxious questioning about "Interpol 2 retard boxes" as a forwarded problem to CLASSIC is over!
At the light of what you mention John:
Same with "hot" start, except that I still do not know how to deal with fuel tap positions (<ON> vs <PRI>) ...
But not the least, and considering new C8E NGK plugs, how come:
In the meantime, I checked CLASSIC vs IP2 documentations and if it appears that both machines are provided with E.I.U (thank's God ), IP2 is fitted with Idling Retard Unit whereas Classic is not.
I wonder why, and why it should be mandatory on IP2 since it does not seem to be on CLASSIC.
Coils are 12 volts (Japanese ? I may be wrong) on IP2, wearing iridium spark plugs, whereas it is more "conventional" (I have my Commando as reference in mind) with LUCAS 6 v coils (same as Commando at Andover Norton selling sheets) wearing casual C8E NGK plugs on CLASSIC.
So that my anxious questioning about "Interpol 2 retard boxes" as a forwarded problem to CLASSIC is over!
At the light of what you mention John:
I may have to be tolerant with some difficulties with "cold" start since the bike was never used from new until now.When putting a Norton Rotory in to "long time storage" the procedure I used was to pump lots of 40 grade engine oil ...
Same with "hot" start, except that I still do not know how to deal with fuel tap positions (<ON> vs <PRI>) ...
But not the least, and considering new C8E NGK plugs, how come:
- Engine rev counter does rev for a while when starting "cold" or "hot", and then revving ?
- when "cold" this is true each starting time
- when "hot" it is random like
- Engine may stall when hot (at about 130°Celsius reading) ?
Regards.
Jérôme
Jérôme
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
OK,sorry if I am banging on about the first time the bike was ever started from new(or stood for a long while) but it is VERY VERY IMPORTANT ,so tell me what the procedure was,and was it you.or were you just an on looker?J.B.
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
The rev counter failing is the rev counter itself as the capacitors inside dry out and often cause them to fail.
Various rubbish in various states of decay.....
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Dear Jerome,
Welcome to Norton Rotary ownership.
I am a member of Vincennes en Anciennes https://www.vincennesenanciennes.com/ are you also a member?
David
Welcome to Norton Rotary ownership.
I am a member of Vincennes en Anciennes https://www.vincennesenanciennes.com/ are you also a member?
David
Re: Hello to the 588 community
Hello,
I had bought the Norton Classic N°12 new.
It is extremely important to put the described oil into the plug holes and then spin the rear wheel in 4th gear.
If the bike is stored for a long time, this should be done every 6 months.
Also remove the air filter and add a few squirts of the 40-weight oil from above.
To do this, insert an oil-soaked rag into the exhaust on both sides.
I don't want to scare you....
but if you have not done this work, it is possible that you have ruined your engine.
When the engine is running, you should not hear any chirping...
With the air-cooled Rotary engine, this procedure is prescribed every 6 months when not in use, it is not written in the operating documents for fun.
If in doubt, it would be advisable to open the engine.
Greetings
Holger
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
I had bought the Norton Classic N°12 new.
It is extremely important to put the described oil into the plug holes and then spin the rear wheel in 4th gear.
If the bike is stored for a long time, this should be done every 6 months.
Also remove the air filter and add a few squirts of the 40-weight oil from above.
To do this, insert an oil-soaked rag into the exhaust on both sides.
I don't want to scare you....
but if you have not done this work, it is possible that you have ruined your engine.
When the engine is running, you should not hear any chirping...
With the air-cooled Rotary engine, this procedure is prescribed every 6 months when not in use, it is not written in the operating documents for fun.
If in doubt, it would be advisable to open the engine.
Greetings
Holger
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
Re: Hello to the 588 community
Engine Spark Plug Holes
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Listen to the man ,that's what Iv'e been banging on about,exclaim,J.B.
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Thank you men for all these contributing posts.
Sorry not to have been on the wire for a while but I was in my submarine under north pole sea ice.
No I tease, but as casual retired one, I must be in help of very very ageing people (my folks), and even as retired it is quite a job.
I may have a question I experimented with my Classic.
I was running a very descending tiny road without any throttle and when gone down the hill, engine stopped and was unable to start again for a while as no petrol any more.
It was not the case since I did fill up some Kms upstream, and I had to choose PRI fuel tap selection for a start.
Is there any reason for that, unless I was stucked on PRI when running (as confused with these type of fuel tap, I really do not remember if I did not move from one position of selector on and off) ...
PS: how to insert image within text ?
Sorry not to have been on the wire for a while but I was in my submarine under north pole sea ice.
No I tease, but as casual retired one, I must be in help of very very ageing people (my folks), and even as retired it is quite a job.
I may have a question I experimented with my Classic.
I was running a very descending tiny road without any throttle and when gone down the hill, engine stopped and was unable to start again for a while as no petrol any more.
It was not the case since I did fill up some Kms upstream, and I had to choose PRI fuel tap selection for a start.
Is there any reason for that, unless I was stucked on PRI when running (as confused with these type of fuel tap, I really do not remember if I did not move from one position of selector on and off) ...
PS: how to insert image within text ?
Regards.
Jérôme
Jérôme
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Thank you to David Bracey "DB6" for his welcome post.
I suppose a France living fellow, Paris area living?
Even a French citizen, same as I am ?
But not for the moment since I am on "heavy" duty with assistance to old people (my parents) and unfortunately not having sufficient time saved for the Classic and the Commando (and some more ...) among casual day life
I suppose a France living fellow, Paris area living?
Even a French citizen, same as I am ?
No I am not, but why not. I may join ...I am a member of Vincennes en Anciennes https://www.vincennesenanciennes.com/ are you also a member?
But not for the moment since I am on "heavy" duty with assistance to old people (my parents) and unfortunately not having sufficient time saved for the Classic and the Commando (and some more ...) among casual day life
Regards.
Jérôme
Jérôme
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Thank you to Interpol2471 for his post.
I checked on the Norton Classic Wiring Diagram (SECTION HH20) and noticed that the BW Rev Counter connector is common to BW RHS coil connector.
May a faulty Rev Counter be responsible of some odd or dysfunction of RHS coil that could have affect sparkling and stalling comportment when engine is hot?
As far as you have more infos about that I keep truly interested.
Do you know any repair return about the failing cause you point ?The rev counter failing is the rev counter itself as the capacitors inside dry out and often cause them to fail.
I checked on the Norton Classic Wiring Diagram (SECTION HH20) and noticed that the BW Rev Counter connector is common to BW RHS coil connector.
May a faulty Rev Counter be responsible of some odd or dysfunction of RHS coil that could have affect sparkling and stalling comportment when engine is hot?
As far as you have more infos about that I keep truly interested.
Regards.
Jérôme
Jérôme
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Yes gentlemen, you scare me !
Referring to your posts, I take stock about long storage protocol for a Norton Classic.
Sorry to say I find this odd compared to a casual alternate piston motion engine maintenance; aside from crankcase oil draining on my Commando after long storage, I do not take any particular care with oiling pistons, and she works since 1977 when I bought her as new.
But contest is not the subject I admit, and I have to consider closer what you express.
And I cross my fingers not to have my motor ruined as Holger mentions, at least because yes I have heard some chirping on and off.
But is it so fragile as you tense me up folks ?
Engine and chassis, whereas LE 043 stood as some "NOS" Classic when bought before me, have been totally overhauled at Norton Motors under authority of MR. R. Negus, on demand of previous owner, a British gentleman MR. Clark.
Engine has been Molybden bi-sulfurized by the way.
To rephrase what you say about mandatory routine maintenance not described within routine chart, it is to add the following operations:
- when storing for at least 6 months, put some oil engine in rotary chambers via spark plug holes
- have engine engaged in 4th gear and spinning by hand rear wheel
- when going back to road, eject oil removing spark plugs and having engine rotated with starter motor
Questions:
- What oil brand, and quality are you using? (please read attachment)
- Is engine oil equivalent to 2 stroke engine oil ?
what do you mean by the described oil?It is extremely important to put the described oil into the plug holes and then spin the rear wheel in 4th gear
and also
what do you mean byAlso remove the air filter and add a few squirts of the 40-weight oil from above.
To do this, insert an oil-soaked rag into the exhaust on both sides.
- 40-weight oil from above?
- exhaust of air Filter?
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Regards.
Jérôme
Jérôme
Re: Hello to the 588 community
Hello,
unfortunately the translation programme is not that great.
But I'll try again.
The actions I have described for a Norton Classic that has been in use for longer than 6 months come from the German importer Joe Seifert in coordination with the Norton factory.
Richard Negus can also describe something like this better.
In any case, I have strictly adhered to them during longer periods of non-use.
In my case, it was usually only stored for the winter months.
I only used Shell Rotella 40 on my Classic LE12, as I still do on my Norton F1 Sport.
I inserted the Rotella 40 into the spark plug holes and from above behind the air filter with a hose. Then I turned the engine with the rear wheel.
Completely different from normal reciprocating engines, the air-cooled Rotary engine is prone to rust from the inside. It also helped to glue the sealing strips.
I also sealed the exhaust openings with an oily cloth to prevent moist air from getting in.
This is how you protect an air-cooled Rotary engine when it is not in use for a long time.
What you do now is your risk. Not my Norton.
Greetings
Holger
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
unfortunately the translation programme is not that great.
But I'll try again.
The actions I have described for a Norton Classic that has been in use for longer than 6 months come from the German importer Joe Seifert in coordination with the Norton factory.
Richard Negus can also describe something like this better.
In any case, I have strictly adhered to them during longer periods of non-use.
In my case, it was usually only stored for the winter months.
I only used Shell Rotella 40 on my Classic LE12, as I still do on my Norton F1 Sport.
I inserted the Rotella 40 into the spark plug holes and from above behind the air filter with a hose. Then I turned the engine with the rear wheel.
Completely different from normal reciprocating engines, the air-cooled Rotary engine is prone to rust from the inside. It also helped to glue the sealing strips.
I also sealed the exhaust openings with an oily cloth to prevent moist air from getting in.
This is how you protect an air-cooled Rotary engine when it is not in use for a long time.
What you do now is your risk. Not my Norton.
Greetings
Holger
Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
Hi Jerome,
Just to set your mind at rest,Norton rotories are not at all fragile,(hence 200,000+recorded miles are not an uncommon occurrence)just totally different from your normal ICB engine,and so require a different approach (especially when laying up the bike for winter or any long term storage),and,(just as important,)the procedure when starting them up again,sorry I can't be more helpful.
I hope you can get the bike sorted 'cos they really are a joy to ride.(thanks for the pic of you and the bike)ride safe,J.B.
Just to set your mind at rest,Norton rotories are not at all fragile,(hence 200,000+recorded miles are not an uncommon occurrence)just totally different from your normal ICB engine,and so require a different approach (especially when laying up the bike for winter or any long term storage),and,(just as important,)the procedure when starting them up again,sorry I can't be more helpful.
I hope you can get the bike sorted 'cos they really are a joy to ride.(thanks for the pic of you and the bike)ride safe,J.B.
Re: Hello to the 588 community
Is this the oil to squirt into the spark plugs holes?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335406770233?_ ... R7je3c3LZA
https://www.ebay.com/itm/335406770233?_ ... R7je3c3LZA
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Re: Hello to the 588 community
James,
According to my Commander Owners Manual, the recommended engine oil is Shell Rotella 40.
If the oil in shown in your post is the same then it can be used to lubricate the engine.
Tony
According to my Commander Owners Manual, the recommended engine oil is Shell Rotella 40.
If the oil in shown in your post is the same then it can be used to lubricate the engine.
Tony