Hello to the 588 community

[Jerome588_LE043]

My name is Jérôme Sfartz, living close to Paris, France and I am glad to join this technical community.

In 2014 I bought a Rotary Classic, LE 043, brand new, from a British gentleman Mr Clark.
Before my acquisition, the motorcycle was overhauled under Mr Negus authority.
I am coming quite late to the use of the motorcycle since it was a real nightmare to register in FRANCE !!!
At last I had to wait for her to get antique collectable status in 2018, but is has been only in 2020 that I could get her registered.

I will tale the story in another post, but you may guys not be be interested. Just lest me know.
I will also come to you later for getting some help since the motorcycle gives me starting problems (due to use of <RES/ON/PRI> petrol tap which compared to my very trivial commando petrol tap ? ...) and stalling when hot (at around 130° temp reading degrees)

PS: please be indulgent with my "froggy" writings.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Jerome,
Welcome to the club .
At 130deg's,seems like your Classic is running a bit warm,(if memory servs my old Classic used to run at 100&110)even so,it still shouldn't stall,what is the engine idle speed set at?( should be between 800&1000rpm.)rgds,J.B.

[Jerome588_LE043]

Thank you John for your concern.

In fact the engine has a rev idle @850 - @900. It should be OK so far.
New NGK C8E spark plugs (as recommended by Mr. Negus)

I may face difficulties to start the engine:

• When "cold" (even with very mild weather; 25°C - 28°C), I have to put choke on quite for a while, decreasing pulling at about 10' ! weird or usual?
  • Meantime Rev Counter does not run for long time, and then finishes to give idling information.

• I get confused with use of <RES / ON / PRI> petrol tap (first time I face such a situation in 50 yrs of biking ...).
  what to do ?
  • put <PRI> at first and then flip to <ON> ? But how long (same interrogation on "hot" start) ?

• When "hot", it may fail to start going to empty battery (this when about 130° C reading)

Observation:
When "hot", i.e. 130°C

• No way to put hand on inlet manifolds.
  • Electrical connectors (2) run alongside LH side inlet manifold.
    Is it nominal or has it to be fit another way ?

• After stalling within traffic jam for example - emptying battery as I told previously, I cannot start again since temp decreases down to a 60°C - 50°C (with some help of an extra boosting battery)

PS:
I read the following post from Mr. G. Wilshaw "Interpol 2 retard boxes"
Could my problem be linked to this related observation?

[johnbirchjar]

OK' re: fuel tap,
In all the 70,000 miles and 30years of ownership I VERY rarely used the "pri",left the tap all the time on "run",and only used the "res" when I actually ran out of fuel!(but in my defence I was getting the "miles per gallon" on "full on main" and then "reserve to dry" )
The none starting when hot sounds like smeared end plates but a lot more info is required.
You said that the bike was stored from 2014 till 2018? an then again till 2020?who stored it?and most important, whoever did the storing were they "Rotorey Wise"and understood that putting a rotorie away for a long period of time is nothing like a conventional "ICE",and did you start it up occasionally when it was in storage? and eventually registered to you?and if so, did you take all the necessary precautions?because if not this could well be why you are having trouble,sorry if I sound a bit of a doom monger, but I learnt all this the hard(and expensive )way,rgds,J.B.

[Jerome588_LE043]

John B wrote

re: fuel tap,
In all the 70,000 miles and 30years of ownership I VERY rarely used the "pri"

Thank you indeed John; sorry not to have taken time for answering.
Thank you for your advice, but I still get confused with the use of it since LE043 cold start does not work on <ON>, at least without choke.
(No explanation within Classic Owner's Manual about <PRI>; only 2 positions fuel tap <RES, ON> description)

You said that the bike was stored from 2014 till 2018? an then again till 2020?who stored it?

I own the bike since 2014, but was not able to register before 2018 (French "Antique collector" status is at least 30 yrs old)
I had no opportunity to register before 2020; done yet.
It has been stored in a dry indoor heated garage by me

most important, whoever did the storing were they "Rotorey Wise"and understood that putting a rotorie away for a long period of time is nothing like a conventional "ICE"

Sorry not to get what you wrote (I keep being french; sorry )

did you take all the necessary precautions?

Can you give me details ? What precautions ?

PS: in comparison to IP 2, is there an Electronic Retard Unit on Classic type, as far I read a post concerning kind of faulty unit strategy by G. Wilshaw ?

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Jerome,
From what I can remember from my Classic(NoLE029)the original Electronic Ignition Unit was the same as the IP2's(but I could be wrong)I distinctly remember because it was so very different from the replacement one from Minimag.
When putting a Norton Rotory in to "long time storage" the procedure I used was to pump lots of 40grade engine oil(which is what I ran the engine on)into the engine (via the spark plug holes)put the plugs back in and slowly turn the engine over by putting the bike in gear and slowly turning the back wheel to liberally smear the engine internals, then every month or so I would turn the engine over using the same method until I was ready to start using the bike again.
The start up procedure I used was to take out the plugs,cover the front mudguard with some old cloth,lots of cloth on the garage floor,and spin the engine over using the starter motor untill the oil stops spraying from the plugholes,wheel the bike out of the garage,new plugs and fire the old girl up, but be warned,LOTS OF SMOKE,and I mean LOTS ,(best warn the neighbours )hope this helps,rgds,J.B.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Jerome,
Looking back over your previous entries I noticed your comment on "Not starting on Run without the choke" No surprise there,most petrol engine vehicles that I have owned/driven, usually required "choke"when starting from cold,J.B.

[Jerome588_LE043]

Thank you very much John for your concern to my questionings.

In the meantime, I checked CLASSIC vs IP2 documentations and if it appears that both machines are provided with E.I.U (thank's God ), IP2 is fitted with Idling Retard Unit whereas Classic is not.
I wonder why, and why it should be mandatory on IP2 since it does not seem to be on CLASSIC.
Coils are 12 volts (Japanese ? I may be wrong) on IP2, wearing iridium spark plugs, whereas it is more "conventional" (I have my Commando as reference in mind) with LUCAS 6 v coils (same as Commando at Andover Norton selling sheets) wearing casual C8E NGK plugs on CLASSIC.

So that my anxious questioning about "Interpol 2 retard boxes" as a forwarded problem to CLASSIC is over!

At the light of what you mention John:

When putting a Norton Rotory in to "long time storage" the procedure I used was to pump lots of 40 grade engine oil ...

I may have to be tolerant with some difficulties with "cold" start since the bike was never used from new until now.
Same with "hot" start, except that I still do not know how to deal with fuel tap positions (<ON> vs <PRI>) ...

But not the least, and considering new C8E NGK plugs, how come:

• Engine rev counter does rev for a while when starting "cold" or "hot", and then revving ?
  • when "cold" this is true each starting time
  • when "hot" it is random like

• Engine may stall when hot (at about 130°Celsius reading) ?

So, could it be a faulty coil (It seems Rev counter stands on the "way" of RH coil and connected to it on CLASSIC wiring diagram) ?

[johnbirchjar]

OK,sorry if I am banging on about the first time the bike was ever started from new(or stood for a long while) but it is VERY VERY IMPORTANT ,so tell me what the procedure was,and was it you.or were you just an on looker?J.B.

[Interpol2471]

The rev counter failing is the rev counter itself as the capacitors inside dry out and often cause them to fail.

[D Bracey DB6]

Dear Jerome,

Welcome to Norton Rotary ownership.

I am a member of Vincennes en Anciennes https://www.vincennesenanciennes.com/ are you also a member?

David

[holger999]

Hello,

I had bought the Norton Classic N°12 new.

It is extremely important to put the described oil into the plug holes and then spin the rear wheel in 4th gear.
If the bike is stored for a long time, this should be done every 6 months.
Also remove the air filter and add a few squirts of the 40-weight oil from above.
To do this, insert an oil-soaked rag into the exhaust on both sides.

I don't want to scare you....
but if you have not done this work, it is possible that you have ruined your engine.
When the engine is running, you should not hear any chirping...

With the air-cooled Rotary engine, this procedure is prescribed every 6 months when not in use, it is not written in the operating documents for fun.

If in doubt, it would be advisable to open the engine.

Greetings
Holger

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[holger999]

Engine Spark Plug Holes

[johnbirchjar]

Listen to the man ,that's what Iv'e been banging on about,exclaim,J.B.

[Jerome588_LE043]

Thank you men for all these contributing posts.
Sorry not to have been on the wire for a while but I was in my submarine under north pole sea ice.
No I tease, but as casual retired one, I must be in help of very very ageing people (my folks), and even as retired it is quite a job.

I may have a question I experimented with my Classic.
I was running a very descending tiny road without any throttle and when gone down the hill, engine stopped and was unable to start again for a while as no petrol any more.
It was not the case since I did fill up some Kms upstream, and I had to choose PRI fuel tap selection for a start.
Is there any reason for that, unless I was stucked on PRI when running (as confused with these type of fuel tap, I really do not remember if I did not move from one position of selector on and off) ...

PS: how to insert image within text ?

[Jerome588_LE043]

Thank you to David Bracey "DB6" for his welcome post.
I suppose a France living fellow, Paris area living?
Even a French citizen, same as I am ?

I am a member of Vincennes en Anciennes https://www.vincennesenanciennes.com/ are you also a member?

No I am not, but why not. I may join ...
But not for the moment since I am on "heavy" duty with assistance to old people (my parents) and unfortunately not having sufficient time saved for the Classic and the Commando (and some more ...) among casual day life

[Jerome588_LE043]

Thank you to Interpol2471 for his post.

The rev counter failing is the rev counter itself as the capacitors inside dry out and often cause them to fail.

Do you know any repair return about the failing cause you point ?

I checked on the Norton Classic Wiring Diagram (SECTION HH20) and noticed that the BW Rev Counter connector is common to BW RHS coil connector.
May a faulty Rev Counter be responsible of some odd or dysfunction of RHS coil that could have affect sparkling and stalling comportment when engine is hot?
As far as you have more infos about that I keep truly interested.

[Jerome588_LE043]

IMG-20210718-WA0004.jpg

To John Birchjar and Holger

Yes gentlemen, you scare me !
Referring to your posts, I take stock about long storage protocol for a Norton Classic.

Sorry to say I find this odd compared to a casual alternate piston motion engine maintenance; aside from crankcase oil draining on my Commando after long storage, I do not take any particular care with oiling pistons, and she works since 1977 when I bought her as new.
But contest is not the subject I admit, and I have to consider closer what you express.
And I cross my fingers not to have my motor ruined as Holger mentions, at least because yes I have heard some chirping on and off.
But is it so fragile as you tense me up folks ?

Engine and chassis, whereas LE 043 stood as some "NOS" Classic when bought before me, have been totally overhauled at Norton Motors under authority of MR. R. Negus, on demand of previous owner, a British gentleman MR. Clark.
Engine has been Molybden bi-sulfurized by the way.

To rephrase what you say about mandatory routine maintenance not described within routine chart, it is to add the following operations:

• when storing for at least 6 months, put some oil engine in rotary chambers via spark plug holes

• have engine engaged in 4th gear and spinning by hand rear wheel

• when going back to road, eject oil removing spark plugs and having engine rotated with starter motor

Is that correct understanding ?
Questions:

• What oil brand, and quality are you using? (please read attachment)

Scanned Document.jpeg

• Is engine oil equivalent to 2 stroke engine oil ?

More over, about what you write Holger:

It is extremely important to put the described oil into the plug holes and then spin the rear wheel in 4th gear

what do you mean by the described oil?
and also

Also remove the air filter and add a few squirts of the 40-weight oil from above.
To do this, insert an oil-soaked rag into the exhaust on both sides.

what do you mean by

• 40-weight oil from above?

• exhaust of air Filter?

Anxious to read you back.

[holger999]

Hello,

unfortunately the translation programme is not that great.
But I'll try again.
The actions I have described for a Norton Classic that has been in use for longer than 6 months come from the German importer Joe Seifert in coordination with the Norton factory.
Richard Negus can also describe something like this better.

In any case, I have strictly adhered to them during longer periods of non-use.
In my case, it was usually only stored for the winter months.
I only used Shell Rotella 40 on my Classic LE12, as I still do on my Norton F1 Sport.
I inserted the Rotella 40 into the spark plug holes and from above behind the air filter with a hose. Then I turned the engine with the rear wheel.
Completely different from normal reciprocating engines, the air-cooled Rotary engine is prone to rust from the inside. It also helped to glue the sealing strips.

I also sealed the exhaust openings with an oily cloth to prevent moist air from getting in.

This is how you protect an air-cooled Rotary engine when it is not in use for a long time.

What you do now is your risk. Not my Norton.

Greetings
Holger

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Jerome,
Just to set your mind at rest,Norton rotories are not at all fragile,(hence 200,000+recorded miles are not an uncommon occurrence)just totally different from your normal ICB engine,and so require a different approach (especially when laying up the bike for winter or any long term storage),and,(just as important,)the procedure when starting them up again,sorry I can't be more helpful.
I hope you can get the bike sorted 'cos they really are a joy to ride.(thanks for the pic of you and the bike)ride safe,J.B.

[James]

Is this the oil to squirt into the spark plugs holes?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/335406770233?_ ... R7je3c3LZA

rotella 40.jpg

[Anthony Duffield]

James,

According to my Commander Owners Manual, the recommended engine oil is Shell Rotella 40.

If the oil in shown in your post is the same then it can be used to lubricate the engine.

Tony

[James]

It is not the same, the oil recommended was for 2 stroke Detroit diesels and is very hard to find

[Anthony Duffield]

James,

I do not understand, the club has a 205 Lt drum of Rotella for sale to club members, I use Castrol Tection DD 40. https://www.thelubricationstore.com/pro ... ograde-40/

Some owners use https://www.morrislubricantsonline.co.u ... e-oil.html but I would want to check the data sheets before using it myself.

You are correct that Norton recommended an oil that is commonly used in Detroit Diesel engines, I have some experience of this having operated these engines myself for many years when at sea.

Perhaps you can compare the data sheets of Rotella with the oil you want to use, if still unsure why not join the club (if not already a member) and buy/use the oil held exclusively for club members.

Tony

[draxdave]

I believe that the latest recommendations are to use Silkolene Classic 2T premix, although you may need to clean the old oil from your system before using it, please feel free to correct me if I have strayed from the straight and narrow !!

[fogrider]

At an event at Cadwell many years ago, I spoke to Bob Rowley about oil. He described the tests they did on various oils after which Rotella DD40 was selected as the most suitable in the Norton rotary.
As I remember, the tests he described was putting an exact amount of different oils on a tray and heating it as though frying it, then allowing it to . The oil that survived that test without sticking or becoming some sort of sludge was the appropriate one - DD40 won.

Not sure how high DD40 is in ash content but when I took the exhausts off my F1 Sport soon after buying it, the L/H port was badly blocked with ash caked on. The oil smelled like DD40, but what it was I cannot be absolutely certain.

Hope that's of interest.

Regards, Terry.
East Yorks.

[fogrider]

The word somehow got replaced by a silly face. Can't see how to correct it.
Bloody computers !

[fogrider]

Its' done it again !. Why me .......
C O O L

[James]

I believe that the latest recommendations are to use Silkolene Classic 2T premix, although you may need to clean the old oil from your system before using it, please feel free to correct me if I have strayed from the straight and narrow !!

I ordered Silkolene Classic 2T from Andover Norton , they are shipping it over seas to me. How do I clean the old oil out ?

[draxdave]

I've never had to do it, but logic would suggest drain & clean oil tank; remove carbs to get access to plenum, solvent and rags ( count them in and count them out !) to clean as best you can; Flush out oil pump and supply lines. Please do wait until someone else chips in with grown up comments, I might well be talking out on my derriere !