NRS588 91 CARBRATION

[Wayne]

Hi AllReading an article, in super bike it states the Nrs588 used Zxr carburettors, all Norton literature I have read refers to Keihin 38mm Flatslide Downdraft carburettors, the 91 spec for a zxr750r states Keihin 39mm FCR (Flatslide) carburettors are used, no mention of down draft. can any one tell me for certain the size and exact model carburettors that were fitted to the nrs so i can buy the correct ones, The National Motorbike Museum are of no help, I have already enquired about unfair pictures ect.Regards Wayne

[Wayne]

The above sould have said unfaired pictures ie no farings on the bike

[Nortonash]

Hi Wayne, I know this is an old thread and you have probably got the info already but I have a pair of carbs from my NRS in front of me. They are Keihin, they have the letters FVKD cast into them and the following stamped into the main body ; 53RAEH27If there is any specific info you need just ask.Ash

[Wayne]

Hi ashI did not have the information thanks, the back ground of my engine is, Its from 91 and the 10th bike engine made, nearly all the Nrs bits are there, but all the standard unmodified f1 stuff was missing. I am slowly getting the engine back together,. It would be nice to hear about your bike?Most of the people with replicas over hear run Rcw machines, I understand your Rcw is now back over here. There’s another Nrs running over hear in a Duckhams style Spondon frame but Môno shock rear suspension, this was a originally a Nrs hill climb engine running a F1 standard gearbox and primary gear (Nrshc1) the rest is all new with some deviations from original 91 to 93 spec, however it’s a very impressive machine see (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uoPUH-w ... r_embedded) if you have not seen it befor. To my knowledge beside this hillclimb engine fitted into a late Sponden chassis there’s just you and my self putting an Nrs together outside the 2 MuseumsI would be interested in seeing pictures and arrangements of the outer covers of your engine, Micron exhaust, Harris frame and swinging arm and anything ells Nrs for that matter if you can find the time to take some pictures for me. My understanding is Harris cant or don’t want to make me a replica frame, the only option would be to get someone ells to make replica Harris frame (after reading C Seeley’s book I wont be asking Spondon to do a Harris frame),so you have a good head start, most of the other stuff is kicking about or Oem’s will supply copies or information required to make copies . Currently we are trying to establish if the bodywork moulds for the late Rcw or Nrs/Duchams bikes are still in existence. The firm in Essex state all moulds have been returned to Norton (which Norton ??) Norton motors are unsure if they have them, Me and Pete Morris could not find them on top of the office roof on the day of the sale, (89 rcw were there), the other company Norton used have disappeared without trace along with the moulds, to date. As I obtain stuff, I place a picture on my face book page or send out the name of the supplier I have found, you are welcome to have access to it, the aim is to provide an exchange of information for people with the race engines and bikes, outside the museum. I realise you have direct access to ex race team personnel and may have no use for this, but you may be able to point me/us in the right direction as with the carbs, invaluble info to me anywayRegards Wayne

[Nortonash]

Thanks Wayne. My NRS is progressing SLOWLY but as we are moving back to the UK later next year I would expect it to move forward quickly, that is the plan anyway As you know I have most of the major parts and I'm really only missing the petrol tank and exhaust. Micron aren't able to make a system as they don't have the dimensions or any plans or templates. I will follow up on your idea that it may have been Harris themselves that made the tank. I have included a couple of shots of the bike as it currently stands.

[Wayne]

Hi AshThe pictures are useful, to me anyway, when you have finished it will make an impressive bike. Micron/Norton quoted me £2500 in 1992 for an exhaust, I believe ‘Geoff could make one for you, The tank and rads will be the hardest as they were unique to the Nrs frame. The frame is clearly a fabrication not extruded as the Spondon frames were, in theory the frame could be re manufactured by a very good fabricator with the correct information, the solid blocks of aluminium i can machine my self to go into the frame. If you get chance at some could you take pictures all way round and of the carbs as fitted. I have obtained some more bits over Christmas, which should give me a complete front end and rear wheel, leaving me to diced about what frame, and why the pictures are useful . Its looking like I will build a complete bike rather than butcher one of my F1 sports Any fabricators out there fancy making me a replica Harris frame or know someone who will as Harris wont?I cant make your engine number out but Dave’s system was a follows Nrs-year-nubmer of engine so Nrs-2-11 would be 1992 11th engine built, incidentally the water pump bypass is normally blanked of and you don’t use a thermal bypass, your primary cover is cut differently to the three I have seen, your clutch is the later slipper type, Ask Richard but I believe your steel clutch plates were oddball one off and your friction plates were standard Kawasaki. Nm may have some these special steel clutch plates left with the intention of make clutch locking tools, again would ask Richard first then Andover N, as I could be wrong. If they have some as consumables I would get a spare set.Regards Wayne

[Nortonash]

To be honest Wayne I think I will have to find someone to make the exhaust for me, I can't see me paying 2500 for Micron to do it, probably more now. I have seen Geoffs work and it is very impressive.I do actually have a pair of radiators, they are actually made by Docking Engineering in Silverstone and are definitely made for this frame. I wonder why Norton changed supplier ? One of the rads is brand new and has never been on a bike, the other is used but very good condition. I will get in touch with Harris and ask if they actually did make the petrol tank, it would make sense that they did the whole thing. I will try and get you some shots of the top of the frame to show you exactly what it looks like under the tank. What would you do about the seat ? As there is no subframe and the seat unit is a self supporting piece that just bolts to the frame would you try to replicate that or use a subframe ?I have a full set of clutch plates plus a few spare I think. Yes the end plate has been chopped away to lose a few more extra grams, I suppose if they don't need a primary cover then they could afford to machine away all the gasket mating area. A competent fabricator could definitely replicate the frame, it is quite minimal really as you will see when I send you through some photo's. Cheers.

[Wayne]

The black portion of the seat, where you actually sit and bolts to the frame is it made of aluminium or Fiberglas/carbon fibre. The tank shop also make replica Ducati fairings in aluminium so depending what the seat is made of they may be ale help. For fibreglass there’s a chap who goes to the local coffee bar who say he an do anything in fibreglass new or repair, he has recently taken and made moulds of Mv gp tanks so aluminium replicas can be made for motto vechia race team, incidentally he’s owned a F1 from new. Harris haven’t even bothered to respond to my emails, but they declined Richard as well to make an Nrs frame, however they did make the bodywork for Brian’s original and subsequent 4 Nrv588’sThe next task will be to find out who has the drawings, Pete says Andover have no Nrs drawings, I will ask Dave next time I speak to him. One thing I have noticed, the blanking plate for your gearbox dose not appear to be fitted but two of the securing bolts are in place, I personally would fit the plate and put oil in the gearbox. The photo below shows the oil pump fitted, bypass blanked an gearbox blanking plate. At some time Nrs started cutting the inner primaries down as in your case, my case is full as shown in the picture, you could however fit the oil pump as on the 91 bike (see Norton rotaries, Perkings)Regards Wayne

[Nortonash]

Thanks Wayne. The bike in that photo in your last post is actually my chassis, NRS001. That photo is from the SuperBike story March 1992, the story is on Ron Haslams 1991 race bike and the bike very clearly has chassis number 001. As can be seen in the photo it has the gear change and brake swapped around for Ron. The story does say that the bike Superbike rode for that story was this bike and it was Rons race bike from 1991. I hope that makes sense ?

[Wayne]

Hi AshThese photos are from Mcn 91 may and show the micron ejector with a flexible hose, the clutch is steel non slipper type, with a slightly different oil pump bracket, Perking,s book has a colour photo of a bike with this exhaust with Ron Haslam, it may be your frame? I requested from Mcm archives a set of these photos and any unpublished ones from the set, it should be interesting if they find them. The published photos are not good enough to see the Nrs numbers but this set are corect for my engine period.plenty of minor differences between photos (see coulor photo) of the two primaries, just shows how they continually developed the bikesI will be adopting the method of period identification suggested by Mark, get a detailed set of photographs and build the bike to that spec. With marks extensive jps library, he showed me how you can see changes in components, and how they were components were mixed up.

[Wayne]

Hi alli had an early photo of the nrs sent to me, its actually ash's bike. I have cut it to show the early micron clearly with a hose as per Gibson. I always wondered why this system was dropped, then revived with the duckhams bikes, micron but as per the earlier bikes. Regards Wayne

[Richard Negus]

Probably because it didn't work anywhere as well as Brian's original system, eventually made by Gibson with noise reduction around the divergent cone.I was sent to the Island during '91 practice to view wrecked NRS engines; four centre plates either cracked or so badly scored as to be scrap. The end plates were ok, so my conclusion was insufficient rotor cooling air.Looking at the Micron systems fitted to the bikes (with air ducts running under the engines), it was immediately obvious that Micron hadn't understood the way an ejector works and hadn't copied the Gibson internal layout. With no way of rectifying the design in the time available, the solution was to set the carbs with a very fast (about 6,000rpm) idle speed so that the engine was always driving and producing exhaust gas. Must have been interesting for the riders at the end of Sulby !For short circuit racing, the problem doesn't occur as the throttle isn't closed for anything but short periods.I don't know how Hislop managed in '92; maybe he too had to cope with a throttle that never closed completely, or the Micron ejector design was improved.

[Wayne]

Hi All Suprised norton did not talk to goodva, i have a 40's 350gmp climax engine fire pump with ejector exhaust most fire engines used them, centrifugal pumps cant self prime and the ejector needs to lift a head of water up 4”x 6ft suction hoses . I have read they tried a rotary but with no success around this timeDo you think its possible for someone like Geoff to mimic from an outward appearance of the micron but apply known technology that works, don’t fancy smearing my newly rebuilt motor. Also in 91 Dunlop retired at the tt saying the bike was too hard work for his shoulder (duke video), Richard, perhaps your reason is an element to why he found it such hard going, but Robert was diplomatic in his interview when he said the big bike was too hard to ride due to his injured sholder.Regards Wayne

[Richard Negus]

Hi All Suprised norton did not talk to goodva, i have a 40's 350gmp climax engine fire pump with ejector exhaust most fire engines used them, centrifugal pumps cant self prime and the ejector needs to lift a head of water up 4”x 6ft suction hoses . I have read they tried a rotary but with no success around this time

Norton did have a fire pump project with Godiva of Coventry in early '90s. Godiva's standard pump, using a Japanese (Mitsubishi or Kubota industrial) diesel engine was classed as a 'four-man pump' as it took four firemen to carry it. With a single rotor Norton engine it became a two-man pump for the same water flow. I saw their prototype running at Shenstone, very compact and quiet too.Godiva had a single rotor engine and connected it to the pump via a reduction gearbox. The first test, 200 hours, was ok but the gearbox shaft broke due to fatigue in the second test and the project was abandoned. That it would only run on petrol, whereas diesel was required,was another reason.

[Richard Negus]

Premature submission again !The Godiva project continued with an engine called the 35/35 ; single rotor, 35kW, 35kg, 'designed' by David McDonald specifically for Godiva and 'engineered' by a newly-employed CAD draughtsman with no engine or manufacturing experience.End plate cooling was a major problem due to them being made of cast iron and rotor cooling air flow was by means of a flywheel fan like a stationary engine. Thankfully, Godiva withdrew after several early engine failures, thus preventing Norton wasting any more money on it.

[Dell Boy]

About 15 years ago I went to see Pete Gibson with the plan to have him make me a curly wurly ejector exhaust. He was then local to me in Essex.At that time he still had curly exhaust sections that hadn`t been used. Unfortunately he had no knowledge of which of the systems he made for Norton worked the best or how the engines were set up for the exhausts so I did not pursue the idea.As far as I can recall he received drawings from Norton from which he made the exhausts.I think it was in 1991 that Robert Dunlop on the JPS stopped in front of me when I was spectating at Kirkmichael church in the village, but on the other side of the road, with the bike on fire.The exhaust insulation wrap had come off I think & the fairing was on fire.I took photo`s off him putting it out as there were no marshalls in that area in those days to deal with it. I tried flogging the pictures to M.C.N. but they were not interested.Derek.

[Wayne]

Hi RichardMy pump is the coventry climax imp engine, hard to belive tha actual modle godva called the fetherwight alledgerly could be lifted by two men, four beter, befor manual handling regs, sounds great through the ejector.At the tt it was one of the races i cant remenber which, exuse to watch full dvd i thinkRegards Wayne

[Richard Negus]

The first NRS conversion of an F1 Sport had a 'Pete Gibson' curly-wurly exhaust with an absorption silencer in place of the ejector. Although Peter was there when I delivered the rolling chassis, I understood he was emigrating and the work would actually be done by his trainee who was taking over the business.The standard of work was a little disappointing, the welding requiring rectification by a local TIG welder in Rugeley, but the sound is best described as 'fruity'. Later systems were made by Motad (only 20 miles away from Rugeley) and were much better, but at twice the price.The first automotive reference I can find to the use of an exhaust ejector is on the Tatra car made in Czechoslovakia. Standard cars of the late 1940's had a rear-mounted air-cooled V8 of 2.5 litres with belt-driven fans for each bank of cylinders and heads; an engine very much ahead of its time with hemispherical combustion chambers and lightweight valve gear. There was a racing version of the engine ( 12:1 compression, 200bhp at 7,500rpm !), used in a Formula One style of car, which dispensed with the fans and had an ejector on each side to pull cooling air over the cylinders and heads.Tatra Chief Designer, Julius Mackerle, recorded the Company's engine development in his book 'Air-cooled Motor Engines' published in 1961.

[Dell Boy]

A fellow member of Essex N.O.C. has one of these 1960`s TATA V8`s bought of ebay for 3 grand. It`s a brilliant vehicle & one I would like to own.Some very good vehicles were designed & built behind the Iron Curtain such as the Wartburg from the G.D.R. etc.It wasn`t all Trabants!!!!!!Derek.

[Wayne]

Hi Allback to the origonal thread, the photo below shows a set of Nrs 38mm Fcr carbs i picked up, the factory also used 36mm fcr carbs depending on the circuit, i picked a bank of 4 up of ebay and hop to make two sets out of themNrs 2-10 Fcr 38mm flatside carbsFcr 36mm flat side carbs

[Wayne]

Hi allAlso picked up some nrs induction pipesRegards Wayne