What's this ?

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Richard Negus
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What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

Scavenge level.jpg
It's the oil collected from the frame scavenge pipe on my Commander in 2265 miles; about 3/4 litre which would have all gone into the left hand inlet pipe!Today, I looked at that oil very closely; no sludge, no carbon, and it looked the almost the same colour and viscosity as new Comp 2 - so I tipped it back into the main oil tank.Since fitting the tank, the bike hasn't smoked on start-up or heavy braking and hasn't fouled a plug when pootling down the lanes.It's too early yet to form an opinion, but I'm feeling optimistic......
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gripper
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Re: What's this ?

Post by gripper »

So have you rigged it to create a depression from the inlet manifold or is the frame drain above the new tank and gravity does it's stuff? Any reason why this would not work on an IP2? Always looking to improve the breed. smiley
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

Dave,I just made the frame scavenge pipe longer and routed it into and out of the top of a screenwasher bottle (with the vent hole sealed). It should work just as well on an IP2, but where to put it on yours?If it continues to work, and no problems arise, I will plumb it directly into the main tank, dispensing with the washer bottle, and introduce a filter into the pipe. I'll need to be sure the oil filler cap seals, or it won't work.
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gripper
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Re: What's this ?

Post by gripper »

I'll probably rig up a small shampoo bottle and see what happens enroute to Applecross.
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

Dave,Not too flexible a bottle! It'll get warm and there's a good 'suck' on the scavenge pipe.
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gripper
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Re: What's this ?

Post by gripper »

Good thinking batman.
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Dell Boy »

Hmmm. very interesting. I will watch developments with interest.Derek.
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

Usual disclaimers, "at your own risk", no liability if it all turns to sh1t, etc.. I didn't realise how many miles I'd done until the half-full bottle reminded me to check.This next week is a Scottish tour, ending up at Applecross for the NOC rally there; about 1500 - 2000 miles. Interesting to see if I have to call on the assistance of the RAC.Watch this space.
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bodgerbloke52
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Re: What's this ?

Post by bodgerbloke52 »

RichardMy Commander has oily plugs all the time, most interesting mod, I will have a go at it. Main problem will be where to mount the tank as I have two batteries. Just a thought on plumbing it into main oil tank. Would the resultant vacuum in the tank slow or stop the oil feed to the motor??Roger
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

Roger,In my experience, plugs on water-cooled bikes never look like the classic plug photos of old, even when ridden hard. Even so, I would check the oil pump cable setting first.The Commander has two batteries to support electrical loads of the police equipment; before bodywork was fitted, the rolling chassis was built the same for both police and civilian bikes = two batteries on the civilian bike. Interpols and Classics run quite happily (sort of, given a decent battery) so you could try the auxiliary tank in place of one battery, just make sure the redundant live wire is well insulated, or disconnect it at the starter solenoid.Your comment about a vacuum in the tank affecting flow to the oil pump is very valid -hadn't thought that one through red face . Keeping the tank would allow any condensation or debris to settle out before the collected oil is returned to the tank.
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Dell Boy
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Dell Boy »

All my Commanders have run with a very light beige colour even around town. After town use the end of the silencers go a bit black but a good thrash restores them back to beige/white.Derek.
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Re: What's this ?

Post by bodgerbloke52 »

RichardAs you are painfully aware I am a absolute beginner with things rotary, I am embarrassed with all my dumb questions to you that you never fail to answer with great patience. Nice to realize that this senile geriatric still has some marbles re oil tank vacuum being a no no.Cured some of the plug fouling by leaning out the mixture half a turn on the right side. Set the oil setting bang on the C mark at 2000 from just a touch rich that I originally selected for running in. Cable works perfect, pump lever drops down perfectly and free. Still oil on C7 plugs even at 70 mph cruise, insulater is burning off but all of plug oily if pottering in traffic. Also good cloud of smoke on start up. Just ordered a pair of NGK CR8EIX. $15 pair, no shipping, no tax, do you need a gross??Roger
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

Aah, that Roger! I had a slight suspicion smiley .I got a pair of CPR8E today and will give them a try next week.
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bodgerbloke52
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Re: What's this ?

Post by bodgerbloke52 »

Yes, the same old bugger out here on the frontier. Is the plod bike ready? wink wink R
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Malc »

This would seem an excellent solution to an IP2 that I came across. Due to the L/H rotor getting all that extra oil and the poor R/H rotor getting less, the owner had a screen washer bottle complete with pump fitted in the right side of fairing compartment.This was full of 'extra' comp 2 and plumbed into the plenum/carb mounting block.As it happened, the R/H rotor always seemed to need that extra lubrication when being tailgated by a following car driver.Heard that really smoked em!Evidently, when plumbed into the inlet manifold, it would draw the oil past the screen washer pump and give a small constant extra supply to the R/H rotor.The motor ran very well even on the original UG80PV plugs and I gather the L/H rotor enjoyed joining in and burning off any extra that had gathered in the plenum.So this mod would save the owner topping up the tank so often, if the bike is still around.
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Re: What's this ?

Post by gripper »

My catch tank is ironically a seven seas cod liver oil capsule bottle. (should go even better) It has forced me to tidy behind my LH side panel and properly secure my digital ignition unit. On a ten mile test run, there appears to be about 30mm of oil sitting in the tube from the frame. whether it moves any further towards my little tank remains to be seen. With regards to smoking exhausts, my right hand pipe smokes more than the left once warmed up. Why would one side smoke more than the other if the carbs are drawing air from a common chamber? must be the valve guides or needs a rebore wink
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Re: What's this ?

Post by johnbirchjar »

Whenever I check/change the plugs on the Classic they are usualy that nice light brown colour and the exaust's are that sort of light grey/brownish hue(especialy after a high speed run)so I don't think I will go down the "plastic washer bottle" route,(nowhere to put the darn thing anyway)see you at Popham,ride safe,regards,J.B.
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Interpol2471 »

I am the same as you John with my IP2 and have never noticed one plug being much different from the other .... must have a blocked frame vent red face
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Re: What's this ?

Post by harrison140 »

I have plumbed my Plenum drain into my right side inlet tract and the Intermediate Plate drain ( see Graham Wilshaws mod on his website )into the left side inlet tract on my Commander .I thought this would give a more balanced input of oil to each rotor housing . I still get smoke on start up (from both rotors ), and realy do get heavy smoking under hard braking , although for a much shorter time than before i did the Intermediate plate mod . Its this aspect (smoke after braking ) that i am most unhappy with and I still need to establish which (or both ) rotors are smoking under braking .I have only recently made these changes so will monitor the situation for a while and see what happens . Richards idea looks good , and i may be tempted to try it later .
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

Scavenge-2.jpg
Here's what was collected during my Scotland trip last week. A fast run up and back, and not too slow inbetween either.Total mileage 1,655 ; oil collected 0.94 litre ; total new oil added to top-up 1.9 litres.Oil consumption 871 miles/litre. Before re-using scavenged oil, consumption was around 550 miles/litre.No fouled plugs, no smoke.The test continues.
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gripper
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Re: What's this ?

Post by gripper »

I covered 1000 miles and used 1.75 litres. That worked out at 571 miles to the litre. The amount between H and L on the dipstick is 1.75 litres. So L means you still have 2.25 litres left to tank dry. My catch tank had about 5cc in and some water!! Despite running in some torrential rain I'm pretty sure it was condensation. The oil looked clean but a little thicker than normal comp2. 5CC is not worth bothering with IMO so I'm returning the system to normal, trial over. Maybe Commanders run different with the air through the engine reversed compared with the air cool Is 571 miles/litre too lean?
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

gripper wrote: Maybe Commanders run different with the air through the engine reversed compared with the air cool Water cooled do run cooler so it may be that all your oil is vaporised as it passes through the rotors and doesn't get chance to condense on the frame walls and get sucked up by the scavenge pipe.Is 571 miles/litre too lean?Sounds about right; oil consumption depends very much on throttle opening as much as road speed
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Re: What's this ?

Post by TRL »

Richard, would this mod work on the F1 as I notice it smokes really badly on starting up, much more than my Commander? Finding somewhere to mount it all is another thing ;-)
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Re: What's this ?

Post by johnbirchjar »

Looking at Richards figures, the Classic do's slightly better at 300 miles to the pint,(my measuring jug is only calibrated in "old money") 580+ to the litre? befor he fitted his "modification" and seems about par for the course for the air cooled models,and as a talking point, the oil pump arm moves at the slightest movement of twist grip,well before the recomended 2000 rpm,(this was set at the factory by a cartain Mr.J Williams Esq after he did an engine re-build some 47,000 miles ago,)and looking at oil mileage,plug and exhaust colour, and the engine running in general, he seems to have got it spot on,thanks John,regards,J.B.
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Re: What's this ?

Post by gripper »

Since removing the bottle and pipery I have a problem much like a Commander where under heavy braking the LH exhaust smokes badly. I'm guessing that a slug of oil is being sucked into the induction pipe. Can't see why it didn't happen before unless the frame vent was previously blocked. More investigation required. Difficult looking down at the pipe and jamming on the anchors at the same time. Might just put some forceps on the pipe.
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Re: What's this ?

Post by PhilipFleming588 »

Richard,

I'm a new member and have been browsing through old posts. I cannot see the older photos on the forum. I'm very interested in your modification. If you still have photos I'd appreciate you reposting them.

Did you continue with the catch tank and has it been a success over the longer term?

It seems such a sensible modification and wonder how many others have done the same.

Regards
Philip
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

'Morning Philip,
Is ten years a record for resurrecting an old thread?
I sold the Commander several years ago as it became too heavy for me to push it about, or more correctly, I became too feeble. I believe it now lives in Devon, owned by an avid Norton collector and still in regular use. The catch tank is still in place & working as intended.
Old photos attached.
Scavenge level.jpg
Scavenge-2.jpg
R.
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PhilipFleming588
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Re: What's this ?

Post by PhilipFleming588 »

Richard,

That looks very neat. Can you remember which car the windscreen washer bottle came from?

Also did you ever bother fitting an oil filter in line?

I know what you mean about Commanders being heavy to push around. Mine is at the limit of what I can manage. In fact I was thinking of removing one of the batteries to save weight until I saw your old post. Now I'll probably replace the battery with a catch tank. So not much of a weight saving.

Thanks for the info

Regards
Philip
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Richard Negus
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Re: What's this ?

Post by Richard Negus »

Philip,
The tank wasn't from a particular car, but rather an accessory part, new, and probably came from eBay.
The nearest one I can find now is a cylindrical upright one, 6.5" high x 3" diameter, with a screw top under "Tudor washer bottle". Might fit.
No filter because I didn't want to restrict the flow. I filtered the scavenged oil before returning it to the tank and then washed the bottle clean inside.

You have to be sure both pipes, and the cap, seal properly or it won't work well.

R.
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