Plug and ignition compaterbility

[Wayne]

Hi AllThe Rcw has proved very difficult to start, as the shaft and rotors are not ballanced for the race fly wheel i have droped the engine. I noticed the plugs are CR9E with about 5 washers on them, i put the plug in Rcw 4 rotor housing and the plug is just below the epitrocoid surface. I checked the plug against a surface distance race plug and with the washers on the CR9E plug the lengths were correct.Problem 1 the engine they came out of has std plug depth, moving the plug up the spark plug hole in the housing, i asume this would not be a good idea ang may give problems igniting the compressed fule mix? am i correct in thining thisProblem 2 the ignition is a std f1 boyer, coils 6v std with no ballast resistor, no retard switch fitted, the ngk website says the R stands for resistor plug, are these compatterble with a std norton ignition.The plugs have been in a norton race engine recently, infact the person i bought the bike from still has a Rcw and i rememberd he has a high rpm misfire (see the no 12 bike at the festival of 1000 bikes 2012 on youtube and you can hear it) i know they have tried both grahams and andovers ignition to no avail. Could it be these plugs if they are still using them, as a set of proper plugs as used buy the team will set you back £70.00Unfortunatley i am not up on resistor plugs apart from the plug caps sould be of the resistor type and i always thought your coil should also matchany Advice is welcom

[kanonkopdrinker]

What plugs were the race team using Wayne?David

[Wayne]

Hi Davidsurface discharge for a fact with yamaha coils on the rc and rcw and brians ignition with a modifide curve, The Nrs were similar to the stock coil norton used but the ones i have use unique waterproof conectors and easy to spot but no markings on the coil, its a one off ignition box as well. The duckams used twinplug aro housings wiith twin output coils one per pair of plugs, brian desinged a igniton system similar in aperance to the Rc588. they used at least two makes up to the rcw, i do know lowering the plug in the housing was done to cure a hi rpm misfire in 87 on a race engine dyno evaluation. After 1990 i have no idea what they used with regard to plugsI will have a look when i go in the garage tomorrow and post the number, i belive it tells you a race plug type in perkins rotary book, if he got it right as alot of the race stuff is wrongNote, to anyone thinking of fitting a race plug alone wont make mutch differance to a stock engine, the race plug seats are lowerd, this is a very hit and miss job on old rotor housings as the nicersil can flake off, the same applies to porting which will make a differance on commander housings? And its all at your risk?

[Malc]

The standard IP2 uses (or used) Champion UG80 PV as these surface discharge plugs are less prone to fouling and there is no earth electrode to burn off with excess heat.I used these in my track bikes over the years with no problem and they have lasted well, BUT, because of the excess oil used, I keep each set for 'hot' use and use NGK C8E for starting and warming up on. The starting problem could be the carbs. Race carbs dont like cold starts. On the F1 Honda I raced, A squeezy bottle of petrol with a small amount of oil added was squirted down the bellmouths to get it to start, later using some oversize sponge balls soaked in fuel and put in the bellmouths to richen the mixture enough for starting. again, warming up plugs were used.Due to the scarcity of good housings, I kept 3 sets with each one progressively modified and tested with the last one running F1 type porting with a light flywheel. The first 2 engines gave the same max bhp on the dyno but the 'feel' differed. The ports are finished around the coating with a fine stone after shaping with carbide cutters to avoid any damage. The fourth engine which has now been on the bench for many years was going to be a real 'trial' engine with further mods.I am hoping to put the track bikes back into road trim before selling, as both would be very useable on the road. They are not excessively tuned and still use standard carbs. I have 92 bhp on 2 engines on 2 different dynos, the third is provenly quicker on track but not measured.

[Wayne]

Hi DavidThe race plugs i have are Ngk R0045 the same as Perkins book, Regards Wayne

[kanonkopdrinker]

Ah, the ROC has some of those ....

[Wayne]

Hi David i appears the R0045 is only part of the number, a quick ebay search revieals quite a few variants, whats the number full number of the clubs plugs, and i will ask the people who may know the answer which ignition system these were used with, ofcourse some members on hear may already know. It also apears ug901pv champion were also used in the Rc bikeRegards Wayne

[kanonkopdrinker]

I'm not at home right now to check .... but R0045 G-10 seems to ring a bell ...DC

[Richard Negus]

NGK are perhaps the only plug manufacturer that has an easily understood system for their grading - until you come to the race plug types.It's my understanding that 'R0045' is the type of race plug (10mm, long reach), 'G' indicates a small diameter nickel alloy centre electrode, and the final number is the heat range, either 10, 11, or 12. I think the coldest road plug is a 9.There is also a unique four-digit stock number for each type/construction/grade. 7471, for example, is the normal C8E supplied without a terminal nut. If supplied WITH a terminal nut, it would have a different stock number, but still be a C8E plug. Race plugs also have a four-digit stock number.Coming back to Wayne's original post, I don't think plug type will have any effect on how the engine starts or runs with no load, except perhaps that getting the spark as close to the trochoid surface as possible has to be a good thing. Remember, road-going Norton rotaries fitted with C8E plugs have the spark some 3mm up the plug hole to no great detriment. All were originally designed for the Champion UG80PV very-long-reach plugs, and no-one was bold enough to reposition the plug seat when 3/4" reach plugs became the standard on water-cooled engines.

[Wayne]

Hi Davidthe correct plug i need is R0045A10 if you have someRegards Wayne

[kanonkopdrinker]

'Fraid not Wayne ....David

[johnbirchjar]

I bought some "resistor" plugs by mistake for the Classic some years back, the old girl didn't like them at all,ran extreamly rough,I only kept them in for abought five miles,threw them in the hedge in discust ,J.B.

[Wayne]

Hi johnThe housings are proper race ones where the plug is droped further to the rotor housing, if the plug had the wrong or no washer it would hit the roto/apex sealRegards Wayne

[norton588]

Hi Wayne and all. This is some thing I have been thinking about for some time now, not so much the plugs but some thing that seems to be an issue with the RCW motor ie race housing with porting and NGK or Champion plugs. Something that my bike seems to suffer from when it comes to starting. Point 1, if the bike is cold but has been used regularly, cold start no problem, hot start no problem. Point 2, bike NOT run for some time , cold start it takes a lot of cranking that runs the battery down and can take 2-3 full battery charges to get it started, bump start also no good, 2 days last time. BUT when it has got going all is fine and goes back “to point 1” ie all ok hot or cold. So could it be, Richard one for you, Dose the problem lay with the very fine seal of oil around the chamber? So the fuel air mix is not properly sealed in the chamber and any un burnt fuel left in the chamber could wash out the fine seal of oil, could this explain why the cold start on a regularly used engine if fine and non used engine is a problem. The “un run” engine also seems to suffer from flooding, so if I am pumping all that fuel in with a good spark why no ignition? One answer is to squirt some oil in to the chamber before trying a (un run) engine to fully seal the chamber. Remember all the problems don’t (cold or hot) appear on a regularly run engine, so “what happens” to it when stood for some time? The Jaguar XK8 V8 suffers from the very same problem and it’s down the seal in the cylinders, which causes the cylinders to flood but not seal. So in a nut shell, un run engine poor first time cold start. Run engine no problem cold or hot. As for the plugs they seem to make no difference. Also the excess flooding at cold start could make the oil sealing worse? I could be wrong about all the above, but what else could it be!Yours mark

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Mark,have you tried using jump leads from the battery on the Jag to your bike? it will start in double quick time and not flatten your bike battery,rgds,J.B.ps,not trying to "teach granny to suck eggs" but experiance has taught me to have the engine running on what ever vehicle is the slave,J.B.

[norton588]

Hi JBThanks for the info, I have slaved it, pushed it, kicked it, shouted at it, crept up on it, asked it nicely! But after being stood for some time it’s a pig! The answer is I suppose just keep it running every week. Also fitting one of the F1 rear fitted battery trays my help as I could fit a bigger battery.mark

[Dell Boy]

I think your problem is poor battery performance but it should start easily with a bump.Definetly problems arise if you have washed the chambers dry thus losing compression.Derek F.

[Wayne]

Hi Allon the road bike oil down the plug hole and turn the engine over by hand with the plugs out, leave over night, i put the plgs back in hand tight. the rext day remove plugs and crank over to remove exsess oil. Re fit plugs proper and start. I also connect to a slave battery. for the last five years of following this routine the f1s start after a couple of seconds. The bikes start very easily there after. The oil helps create a better seal boosting compresson, befor i odopted the above routine i have spent all day getting the bike fired up.in adittion modern fule goes of very quikly, in my legend within 3 months, it would not start, new petrol away it went?However i have noticed when Brian fires the works bikes up at mallory they take a liitle bit of turning over befor they fire up, diferant timing, ignitions, no retard, longer inlets, race porting, lack of use may all play there partMark can you tel me the champion part number of your plugsRegards Wayne

[norton588]

Hi WayneThe Champion plugs are number; UG80PV, keep an eye on the length as they are longer than the NGK PLUGS, Bit of info ref NGK plugs. After a Mallory post tt event I had an over heating problem, it was something call a hot summer, remember them? Any how to the point, I found that all 4 plugs had small cracks around the porcelain centre isolator, perhaps due to the over heating. The engine then suffered from high rev misfire, understandable. So I sent the plugs to NGK UK to ask what had caused it, they confirmed that excess heat could cause the cracking, but unlikely as the plugs should be able to cope with any heat that a rotary could produce, not sure I believe that. But the one thing that they told me is that all annular discharge plugs suffer from something called “creeping” due to the way the plugs are made and the expansion of the centre core. This causes the small cracks around the centre core and allows the spark to discharge lower down the plug thus causing the misfire. I still have the letter from NGK. Perhaps it was the best answer they could come up with at the time, but they did keep the plus with the cracks in and sent replacements. So I checked all my plugs and guess what ALL YES ALL of the NGK plugs had small cracks on the centre core but all worked fine with no misfire. None of the Champion plugs I have used have suffered from this problem. Thanks for all the tips with regards to cold starting. I can confirm that “kicking the bike and shouting at the wife” are at times preferable to buying a new battery! Just joking.mark

[johnbirchjar]

It would seem that Wayn's routine with the oil is the answere,bit of a palaver but better than washing the chambers with exess fuel (never a good idea )rgds,J.B.