more amps

[johnbirchjar]

Hi guys, guess who? ,more brain picking in affraid .
Looking at the alternators 'twix Classic and Commander,one would assume the latter to be more powerful,(It's twice as big!)more Amps?,but no,they are the same(about 13amps)which, unfortunatly for me, is not enough to keep the battery toped up( 'cos I have now converted the Commander to a 'leclic water pump,)so what with that, the 'leclic fan AND riding with the lights on,13 amps is not enough,so my question is,How to get more amps?Upgrade the VCR?('cos I assume this is what controls the amps into the battery)or have I got this completely wrong,rgds,J.B.

[Richard Negus]

Hi John,
The Commander generator is rated at 28 amps, more than enough to cope with a 'leccy pump and all the lights.
Where did you see the figure of 13 amps for it?
R.

[BlackIP2]

According to physics, watts = amps × volts, and in my IP2 workshop manual the generator is rated at 220w.
That should mean that 220 watts = just over 18 amps x 12 volts.
I think for bike electrical power consumption you'd be better off calculating how much watts in total you are using as opposed to amps? I thought amps is normally used to just calculate what size fuse you put into a circuit?
The Commander uses the Yamaha XJ900 VCR - and the XJ's generator was rated at 252w so should be more than enough to cope with the rotary 220w alternators. My IP2 has the XJ VCR and works fine, though I had to fiddle with the wiring to get the tacho to work.
No doubt the more electrically qualified in the club will be able to clarify, or dare I say, throw more light onto the subject...

[Richard Negus]

I don't have the benefit of an IP2 Manual to hand, but I always thought that generator had a 180 w output.
On the other hand, the Commander has a much bigger Kokusan generator rated, I think, at around 330 w.
John's Classic now has a Commander engine (and generator) installed.
The bigger generator was chosen for the police Commander so that, at an incident, it could be left with the strobes, lights, and radio running, the engine idling and the radiator fan cycling on and off, without flattening the batteries.
R.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Richard,the 13amps are what are regestering on the amp metre,(which is wired direct to the battery)even so,
the alternator on the Classic has never poked out enough power for me to run BOTH the H/Lights on dipped beam for the Triumph fairing fitted to said Classic,(this problem came to light soon after I fitted the Triumph Fairing way back in 2006,and it took me quite a while to fathom what the problem was,(one of the downsides to NOT having an amp metre ) I then subsiquentley disconnected one,the other to run on dip, and only run both on main beam when filtering,or when riding alone on minor roads,so this was the method that I used over the years to keep successive batteries from going flat .
The amp metre was fitted after the second VCR/Electronic Ignition melt down (long story)
I don't think the lack of amps is down to the currant VCR,the bike is now on its fourth,and the previous one never charged above 13 amps either .Any thoughts?rgds,J.B.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi guys/Richard,(This is SO embarrassing )My Classic is fitted with VOLT Metre ,NOT an Amp Metre.
Even so,When using the Classic originally, this still doesn't explain the lack of power to keep the battery charged up while running both H/Lights,even on dip beam.
Before fitting the Commander engine the Volt Metre,used to read just over 12v running with ONE H/light on dipped beam with the Classic Alternator.
The Commander Alternator reads bang on 12v with 'leclic pump,Rad Fan and ONE H/Light on dipped beam,but reads under 12v when I switch to both H/Lights on High Beam,(which leads me to think that I will be having flat battery problems ,or am I worrying needlessly?(I am a bit paranoid about "Flat Batteries" after all the probs:in the early days,caused by the twin H/Lights on the Triumph fairing)Comments please .
Once again, apologies for the earlier miss information(It's an age thing )rgds,J.B.

[Richard Negus]

John,
In standard form, the normal load taken by the P53 electrics is:
Headlamp main beam 60w
or
Daylamps 72w
Ignition 30w approx.
Rear lamps 12w
No plate lamp 4w
Total : 118w
So plenty in hand for the occasional fan, brake lights, indicators, heated grips, rear fog lights, and horn.
I had a voltmeter on my Commander (pre-automotive alternator), wired between the ignition switch and ground, which typically indicated 13 - 13.5 volts during normal running.
What wattage are your twin headlamps?
R

[BlackIP2]

Commander generator, according to the rider's handbook, is rated at 370 watts. Even more power!

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Richard,H/Light Bulbs? bog standard 55/60.
Quite some time ago I thought about upgrading to more powerful bulbs but decided against it 'cos of the "Flat Battery" prob's.
I am still wondering if I have been fitting the wrong VCR's(all three of them?surely not)I will have a bit of a "Surf" and see what I come up with ,I will report anon.J.B.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi guys,reporting back.
Had a bit of a "surf" and am still none the wiser,no info: on how much VCR's regulate(amps or volts) to the battery,or indeed if some send more than others,so some guidance from you guys would be appreciated.
Going back to one of your previous comments Richard,you stated your Commander showed a 13 or 13.5volts reading with Lights,Fan,Heated Grips,ect;
I ran the bike yesterday and didn't come even close to those readings , with Fan,Pump and BOTH H/Lights on main beam and the V/Metre registered under 12v,I then ran with just One H/Light on dip and it just crept over the 12v,not even 12.5 ,so once again I am of the opinion that the problem is with the VCR, 'cos these readings are about the same as I used to get from the Classic with no Pump or Fan to cope with,(albeit,with a much less powerful Alternator),but strange none the less that both Alternators showed almost the same reading's.J.B.
PS,Lots of snow down here in Essex this morning .J

[Dave]

Hi John, i am certainly no expert on electrics, but have you measured the voltage at the battery with a independent meter, in case your voltmeter on the bike is out?, or you can buy cheap digital meters or the traffic light type real cheap to connect up as a temporary double check, i bough a voltage regulater made by Electrex World, [at the time the one they listed was wrong, but they replaced it with the correct one,] and on my Commander it gives around 14+ volts at the battery with lights off, which in my opinion is a bit high, but has caused no problems in the two/three years it's been fitted. Dave

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Dave,Yep,that was one of the first things I did when I first had the flat Battery problems way back in '07 (after fitting the Triumph fairing with it's twin H/Lights.)
The reason for fitting the Volt Metre was because modern VCR's only have 2 wires(not 3 as the early ones fitted by Norton did,) the third one was for the Ignition Light,the omision of this third wire,(hence no Ignition Light) is that one has no idea when ones charging system isn't charging ,(which I found to my cost on more than one occasion ,)
When I raised the question with the supplier of the 1st replacement VCR of "How do I know when my charging system isn't working?"his answer was "Your Battery goes flat" "Its a bit late by then" was my retort,he then informed me that "No modern VCR's come with 3 wires" which seems to be the case,'cos I have yet to find one,hence the necessity of the fitting of a Volt Metre ,J.B.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi guys,I've been on Electrix World web site and it would appear that the information that "No modern VCR's have 3 wires" was a load of c**p ,and it would appear that ALL VCR's have more than two(although they are now called Regulator Rectifiers)also,Electrix World sell RR's for Norton Commander's .
I now have a bit of a cheek .Have any of you guys got a spare Commando RR lying about in your garage/W/shop that you could loan me so I can experiment with before I shell out £100 + for a new one from E/World? (''cos I am convinced that this is where my lack of amps stems from) a hopefull,J.B.

[Anthony Duffield]

John,

My Commander has a 3 phase alternator.

3 phase means it has three wires it produces unregulated alternating current (ac) alternator is another word for generator, unregulated because as the engine speed goes up down so does the output from the alternator.

The electrical system on your bike is direct current (dc) for the alternator to charge your dc battery you will need a rectifier a device that changes alternating current to direct current.

So you need something to regulate the output from your alternator so you have a steady output regardless of engine speed and to convert the alternating current to direct current.

Such a combined unit is called a regulator/rectifier, it regulates the output from the alternator and at the same time converts the alternating current to direct current, to avoid getting too technical the regulator/rectifier can also change its output depending on load i.e how many lights you have on or how flat your battery is, more load = higher output less load = lower output.

I changed my regulator/rectifier because I found that it was not regulating properly so purchased a new one from Startright, not finding one on their website this morning nor finding that Andover Norton list one I checked out Yambits (remember the Commander uses a lot of Yamaha items i.e. XJ900F) and found a regulator/rectifier for a XJ900F, copy and paste this into your browser:

https://yambits.co.uk/xj900f-regulator- ... 58613.html

I hope the above helps

Tony

[johnbirchjar]

Thanks for the info Tony,most helpful.
I will conduct a few more tests to make sure that my problem is with the RR,but I am almost certain that this is where the problem lies,I will report anon, ride safe,J.B.

[BlackIP2]

As for the problem with the ignition light - same problem for me with the Yamaha rectifier unit on my IP2 - try this supplier of warning lights which you simply add into the wiring. Mine's going to be sorted during this winter's rebuild so I can't vouch for its effectiveness yet, but it comes highly recommended from the main Norton owners' club forum.
https://www.improvingclassicmotorcycles ... oducts.htm

[johnbirchjar]

Thanks for the info,but I have a Volt metre that doe's all of the above(exept for Oil Pressure )ride safe,J.B.

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Black IP2,I don't know if the RR on your bike is located in the same place as it is on Classics(back to back with the Electronic Ignition Box)if so, my advice is to re-locate it,('cos of the heat that RR's generate they tend to cook the E/IgnBox )I cooked 3 of each inside 50,000miles before I twiged what the problem was and re-located the RR(It doesn't take me long to work things out )
I have run a few tests and am 95% sure my problem is with the RR,ride safe,J.B.

[BlackIP2]

Yes it is and also one of the jobs to do on the winter rebuild!

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Guys,I have more AMP's (sort of )The story go's like this.I unbolted the VCR,(now called a RR)from the bike frame to get a look at the Model number(didn't disconnect any of the wires though)so I could contact the supplier for some info;(eg what sort of Volt Metre reading should I get from this RR?)bolted the RR back onto the bike,then, because I had been fine tuning the carbs, I took the bike for a test run,not far 7or 8miles?anyway,about half a mile from home on the way back the Volt Metre began to register almost 13v ,now bearing in mind this was with the Rad Fan,Electric Water Pump,AND the H/Lights all switched on,I was amazed,even when the RR was first fitted on the Classic way back in 2012(about18,000miles ago)it has never registered more than 12.5v (even with no lights on,)and back in the day I didn't know any differant and thought this was the norm.
I think must have disturbed something and got a better connection,(I have previuosly tried a new earth wire,made no differance)
Although I am pleased with the extra power,things are still not quite right,'cos I get the same Volt Metre reading when the engine is idling(900rpm)as I get at 3000rpm?I will check the Volt Metre again using the Honda charging system.
I have e-mailed the supplier(unfortunately, Electrix World's tech;department will only comunicate via e-mail,which is a right pain,)and await their reply(I won't hold my breath)I will keep monitoring the situation and keep you all informed(I bet you can't wait for the next riveting instalment )ride safe,J.B.

[Zed]

John,

Did you ever solve this problem as I believe I am having a similar problem with my Commander? My problem is more to do with the idling when stationary, e.g. at traffic light, when the lights are on and the fan switches on, the volts drop below 12V, say 11.5V. The idle is low at 200-250rpm. At speed when it is running it is above 13V down the motorway. The worry is that it will drain the battery when the battery is stationary but the engine is on...

Zed

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Zed,Yep,the problem was the Generator was s****d , I had it re-wound, and with that(and a new R/R) all is now fine (although I havn't done many miles with the new system yet as the Classic has been laid up for the winter)hope this info helps,rgds,J.B.

[johnbirchjar]

In addition,isn't 250/300 idle a bit on the slow side?I thought 8/900 was about the norm to keep the "charge" at 13v.(and I still can't cure the "hunting"at below 1800 )J.B.

[Anthony Duffield]

Zed,

JB is correct in that your idle speed is a bit on the low side, 13 volts at motorway speed is OK.

If you do not want to increase your idle speed its OK but I would suggest it is not a good idea to leave it idling for to long.

I test my charging system as follows:

With a good volt meter/multi meter connected at the battery and engine off you should have around 12.5 volts, start and warm up then speed up to 3k RPM and with just the daylight running lights on you should have approx 13 to 14 volts at the battery, switch on the lights and full beam and check that the volts at the battery do not go below 12 volts.

The alternator and rectifier/regulator should be able to keep the battery at 12 plus volts with all lights on when running at around 3k RPM

The alternator needs speed to produce volts, low speed low volts high speed high volts its the regulator/rectifier that supplies a reasonably constant dc to charge the battery and power your bikes electrical system.

Having charging issues may not be the alternator or RR but bad connections and poor earths, all should be checked and made good before deciding its an item of hardware that's at fault.

Hope this helps
Tony

[Zed]

Cheers Gents,

This is just down to me mucking with it too much. I was told by Graham once that a good engine could idle at low speed and I wanted to see how low! Now this speed does go up as the engine warms (more than 1 radiator fan cycle or after a quick blast) to 300-400 rpm. It used to sit above 1000rpm after rebuild but I was told to drop the idle speed and I have been leaning the mixture out. It does not have any problem running at this setting and I was seeking to reduce fuel consumption: i'm on 48mpg trying to get to the magic 50! (but I may be too tall and too fat)

I must say, she (and yes, it is a she!) picks up her petticoat and sprints better than she has ever done with these settings. I'm on a fully synthetic 2-stroke (clean exhaust and low stink is a god send) and have been boroscoping on a regular basis to check for carbon build up and any scoring. If anything I think the oil flow rate could be reduced, but as long as it is over oiled rather than under the risk to the engine is minimised and I have beautiful dry caramel plug tips.

I guess I am just tickled I can run it this slow, although the electronic ignition tends to push this up slightly by the end of the ride. But then again this could be the casing expanding allowing it to spin faster.

I will see if it starts to generate a long term issue. Currently it has never failed to start, I was just worried looking at the dial in traffic as it dipped below 12V. I was surprised to see the LED headlight did not really help power drain.

Zed

[johnbirchjar]

Hi Zed,I doubt very much if you will get 50mpg out of a Commander,I regularly used to get 48 out of the Classic,but very few Commander riders can get as much,(heavier bike?)and in its present w/cooled form 45 is about the norm,but good luck anyway,and if you run the carbs to lean the old girl may run a bit on the warm side,(apart from playing hell with the performance ,) ride safe,J.B.

[Zed]

Truth be told I am seeing 47.6mpg so I am rounding up and being very gentle, so 45 sounds more realistic in the long run. She has only done a few thousand miles since rebuild so once the tip gaps increase I expect the efficiency to go down. That and running it gently is a recipe for carbon build up...
Temperature does not appear to be a problem, getting to 80 deg and staying there within about 10 deg as the fan cycles. Performance has not really suffered; I think they were set rich after the rebuild.

Zed

[johnbirchjar]

Yep,sounds about right.(Not long now to the warmer weather so we can get out and enjoy our Rotories )ride safe,J.B.