Oil pipes and engine removal

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Ageing Rotarian
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Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Ageing Rotarian » Wed Apr 29, 2020 6:23 pm

Dear all, I am going to investigate an oil leak from the back of the engine on my classic replica and I appreciate I will probably have to remove the engine to do it properly.
Couple of questions:
1) if any of the pipes require replacing are there any issues with sourcing replacement lines/fittings?
2) any tips on dropping 'the lump' as never had to contemplate this up till now?
Thanks in advance
Roy

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Anthony Duffield » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:23 am

Roy,

Assuming your air cooled is similar to my Commander, could the oil leak be from the centre plate?

The centre plate on My Commander had a plug in the tapped hole, if the air cooled are the same could your plug have been removed or dropped out?

To remove the engine is not a big job on my Commander, it may not be quite the same for air cooled.

Tony

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Richard Negus
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Richard Negus » Thu Apr 30, 2020 9:39 am

The usual reason for oil leaks at the back of the engine is wear in the throttle spindle bushes - and that's a major job to fix (engine split).
Before embarking on such a venture, I suggest washing off the back of the engine with solvent and then trying to see where the oil is coming from.
It may be just that one of the plastic oil pipes is cracked and leaking.
A good guide - clean oil = oil feed leak, dirty oil = throttle spindle leak or, if you're lucky, the oil seal behind the flywheel is leaking.
R.
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Ageing Rotarian
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Ageing Rotarian » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:40 pm

Thanks for the response gents.
Not sure about the plug in the centre plate Tony, I have had a quick look and cannot see any obvious plugs. Is the plug at the rear of the centre plate?
Richard, the oil seems to be fresh and plenty of it, collecting under the bike with droplets forming on the centre plate and it seems to be eminating from the rear of the plate (no real surprise there due to the amount of connections).
I have cleaned this area in the past with brake cleaner, but to be honest, when the oil leak reappears the whole general area around the pipe unions seems oily (more left than right but only marginal).
The bike seems to start oozing when it has been stopped overnight/for a day and then it keeps dripping with quite large areas deposited under the bike.
The steel pipes seem to be dry from the plastic pipes to the union on the back of the chamber so my initial thoughts (regrettably) is the flexible pipes are not too shabby. The union itself is oily and so is the casting underneath but it is difficult to see, as I am sure you will appreciate. The steel pipes does not seem to be sitting true with the union but that might be normal.
Richard, is there any other checks I can do on the spindles with the engine in situ?
Other than this there is a slight witness coming from the left hand elbow (Frame to left hand casting) but this not what I would say is significant.
sorry it's bit 'war an peace' for what should be a simple diagnosis but it has been eluding me and I thought dropping the engine so I could get a clearer look would be more conclusive.
Thanks for your time
Regards
Roy

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by johnbirchjar » Thu Apr 30, 2020 10:59 pm

Like Richard says,clean oil would suggest one (or both)of the pipes has sprung a leak,a bit fiddly to get at but check them both properly'cos it's a damn site easier than having to take the engine out exclaim,
I'm not sure I agree with Tony about the engine removal on a Commander being easier than a Classic,having done both I think the Classic is much easier,(no cooling system and the "plastic" on the Commander is a real pain evil )good luck either way,SVF,J.B.

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Richard Negus
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Richard Negus » Fri May 01, 2020 9:15 am

Roy,
There is no plug on air-cooled engines, only water-cooled.
There are two types of flexible oil pipe.
Early IP2's had clear plastic pipe, fixed to the steel pipes at the engine end by screwed clips. The plastic tended to go hard with heat/age and cracks were not uncommon, particularly by the clip.
Later IP2, particularly MOD, had black nylon pipes with double-ended screwed compression connectors to the steel pipes. Not entirely fool-proof but much better than the clear plastic.

Have you looked at the clear plastic scavenge pipe from frame to left hand induction pipe? I've known those leak too, but the oil is usually dirty.

The steel pipes into the centre plate don't often come loose, so if you're sure the oil is clean, then it is almost certainly leaking from the plastic pipes.
R.
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by johnbirchjar » Fri May 01, 2020 10:44 am

Great minds think alike Richard,I was going to suggest the scavenging pipe,but you beat me to it by a couple of hours(my morning is obviously a bit busier than yours wink),while on the subject of scavenging pipes,
it may be a good idea (while our rotories are in "lockdown" evil)to
make sure they are not clogged( with Carbon?) in the Plenham Chamber,much grief will ensue if they are cry, SVF,J.B.

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Ageing Rotarian » Sun May 17, 2020 3:26 pm

Gents, thanks for your input and I have resumed mission this morning after being encamped in a downstairs toilet (fitting one, not for any other reason).
Cleaned the engine down, which was quite difficult to do with the limited access and the heavy tarnishing from the silkolene and rectified a couple of problem areas (helicoiled the two bolts which secure the small engine covers).
Covered the area in Johnsons baby powder (it might leak but at least it smells nice) and started the bike after at least six months. I had turned the engine over and injected a little neat oil into the chamber before firing up.
The bike started almost first time with the obvious plumes of smoke coming from the pipes. After warming up, it settled down to a steady tick over and I started to have a look for any damp patches.
Left hand chamber seems to be the main culprit with seeping coming from the flexi (but only slightly) and there was a steady seep from the metal pipe coming from from the chamber. After a very short run there was a slight witness on the fining and when I looked underneath the engine you could see the droplet form on the radius of the pipe.
The flexi can be dealt with relatively easily but the union looks like a pig to get at and I assume that engine removal is required?
Obviously will not run the bike until these areas are rectified but any tricks will be appreciated.
The short run only confirmed what we already know, that these are quite exceptional bikes and a joy to ride.
Regards
Roy
P.s there was some staining around the throttle spindles and a witness on the adjacent casting, so again get not a great situation, but following the run no damp patches, but there is something going on

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Richard Negus » Sun May 17, 2020 4:47 pm

Hi Roy,
To re-seal or replace the steel pipe, the engine has to come out for a proper job. Do you have the IP2 Workshop Manual?

. to hold the eccentric shaft whilst undoing the sprocket and clutch nuts, remove the auxiliary flywheel (three M8 cap heads screws) and you'll find two 1/2" holes in the main flywheel for a tool. A hot air gun on the sprocket nut helps soften the Loctite. When re-assembling, Loctite 270 on both, 100 ft.lbs for the clutch, 150 for the sprocket nut.

. if the primary oil is black & gungy, suspect the clutch damper rubbers are perished. Clean the starter sprag clutch thoroughly and scrub the clutch plates

. with the engine out, it's a good idea to pull the end cap off the starter motor to check for oil ingress. With the engine in the chassis, removing the motor is impossible.

Plenty of people on here have done these jobs so no shortage of advice.
R.
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Ageing Rotarian
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Ageing Rotarian » Sun May 17, 2020 5:56 pm

Thanks for that Richard.

I do not have a hard copy but I believe Graham has posted one on line so I will 'swat up'.

I am jumping the gun a little, but do the pipes have a swagged end to them to form the seal against the casting or do they have an olive?

The leak seems to be between nut and pipe and I was wondering, if the end of the pipe was damaged I might need replacements.

As I said, I am jumping the gun a little but just curious.

Have a good evening.

Roy

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Richard Negus » Sun May 17, 2020 7:47 pm

Roy,
The pipes are standard 3/16" brake line material, the sleeve nuts are standard 3/8" UNF.
The inner end of the pipe has a conical flare.
When re-assembling, use Wellseal on the nut as a lubricant and sealant.
Before putting the engine back, make sure the throttle levers can move freely without binding on the pipes.
R.
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by johnbirchjar » Sun May 17, 2020 10:52 pm

Pray to what ever gods you worship that the clutch rubbers are OK,'cos they are an absolute b*****d to replace evil,my advice is to let someone with the tools and know-how do it for you wink,rgds,J.B

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Anthony Duffield » Tue May 19, 2020 7:55 am

Roy,

Had we lived a bit closer you could have borrowed my special tool made to lock either the flywheel or balance weight

Tony
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Ageing Rotarian » Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:21 am

Sorry for the late response Tony and thanks for the offer.
I presume you have added an attachment which I am struggling to find/open, am I missing something?
Regards
Roy

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Jun 03, 2020 10:39 pm

Hi Roy,are you having to take the engine out?if so I have a number of tips to offer to make the task a bit easier wink,J.B.

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Anthony Duffield » Thu Jun 04, 2020 7:22 am

Ageing Rotarian wrote:
Wed Jun 03, 2020 8:21 am
Sorry for the late response Tony and thanks for the offer.
I presume you have added an attachment which I am struggling to find/open, am I missing something?
Regards
Roy

Roy, Herewith the photo of most of the tools I have assembled when removing the engine from my Commander, the special spanner is designed to hold either the balance weight or flywheel, I have not included the long studs that replace two of the bolts holding the inner primary chain case to the gearbox, these can easily be made from longer set screws.

I hope this helps

Tony
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Ageing Rotarian » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:10 am

Hopefully added a view of the oil leak (baby powder and all).
Not sure if it had uploaded as never tried it before so genre goes.
image.jpeg
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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Anthony Duffield » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:38 am

Roy

Photo uploaded and leak can be clearly seen in way of the oil feed union

Looks like an engine out job to me

Good luck with resolving the problem
Tony

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Jun 10, 2020 11:11 pm

Looks like the oil pipe union is the culprit,and they/it, can be replaced without having to remove the engine Very Happy,the down side is just about everything else has to be removed( except the exhaust system)to get at it,enjoy exclaim,SVF,J.B.

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by Ageing Rotarian » Tue Jun 16, 2020 11:05 pm

Thanks for the comments John and any tips will be welcome.
The union looks as though it has had a spanner attached without it being fully engaged as the flats are quite rounded so maybe it is time to have a proper look and maybe a replacement.
I just need to take a deep breath and get cracking as once out, I hope there is nothing wrong with the thread or seat were the pipe locates so it can be repaired and back up and running as soon as.
Redundancy looms in a couple of weeks so I should be able to devote some time to the task in hand.
There is definitely a leak were the flexi pipe connects to the hard pipe, has anyone come up with an effective Seal?
Richard mentioned a change to a union affair which was better but still had issues. The bike has the a flexi pushed over the end of the steel pipe secured with e split clamp pipe clip which doesn't seem to clamp effectively.
As always gents, all suggestions gratefully received.

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:52 pm

If memory serves,when I put the Commander engine in the Classic I had to change the"run" of the oil pipes,so I cut the ones from the Commander and made them longer with transparent plastic pipe and good quality quality Jubilee Clips,and they were still good some 3 years and about 5,000 miles later when I put the original engine back in the Classic,(just a suggestion if your pipes are b******d wink)SVF,J.B.

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Re: Oil pipes and engine removal

Post by johnbirchjar » Thu Jun 18, 2020 10:47 pm

Further to yesterdays post,if you need re-placement pipes I'm sure Graham will have some some wink,J.B.

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