VCR's

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johnbirchjar
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VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:25 pm

Hi guys,The replacement "Voltage Control Regulator"(now known as Regulator Rectifiers)supplied to me by "Electrix World" for the duff one sold to me for the Classic(It would only charge to 13v at the battery)has now followed suit after just 4months & thirteen hundred miles evil,needless to say I am not best pleased,so can anyone recommend a VCR that will charge at the battery at least 13.75(it needs at least this to power 'leclic pump,+fan + twin head lights ect: and keep the battery fully charged)I should think the ones supplied with the Police Commanders were at least that powerful.
On a different note wink,took the Honda for it's MOT on Wednesday,nasty surprise,knackered rear wheel bearing,after only thirty-five and a half thousand miles exclaim,that and the fact I had to have the Front Forks re-chromed after 4 yes 4 sets of fork seals in the said 35,000 miles,who said Honda's were bomb proof wink,J.B.

Anthony Duffield
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Re: VCR's

Post by Anthony Duffield » Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:38 pm

John,

The alternator on my Commander has an output of 220 watt, 12 volts 3 phase, any 3 phase 12 volt regulator/rectifier with an output of the same as the alternator will do what you want. Note that you could fit a 300 watt regulator/rectifier but you would still only get what the alternator can provide.

Are you sure your alternator is OK?

Try:

http://www.norbsa02.freeuk.com/goffyelectrex.htm

It might be best to speak to someone with some electrical knowledge have you thought of trying Ferritt at http://www.motorcyclewiring.co.uk/home-page.

Tony

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:25 pm

Hi Tony,the alternators are virtually bomb proof Very Happy,and visually mine is ok(the one off the Classic I had to have repaired'cos the "plates"?were lifting,but nothing like that is wrong with the Commander one)
I did an experiment today by having the engine rev at a steady 2500rpm,switch on all the electrics and watch as the voltmetre crept from 13.5 to just below 12v.(even the 13.5 is wrong,it should be 13.75)
I have removed it from the bike and it is now parceled up and waiting to be posted smiley,I will report anon of Electrex Worlds
findings,J.B.

Anthony Duffield
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Re: VCR's

Post by Anthony Duffield » Mon Jul 02, 2018 9:04 am

John,

Where is the volt meter connected, direct at the battery terminals?

Tony

johnbirchjar
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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Mon Jul 02, 2018 11:05 pm

Yep,J.B.

Anthony Duffield
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Re: VCR's

Post by Anthony Duffield » Wed Jul 04, 2018 2:30 pm

John,

Will you be at the In Steam Rally in Norfolk this month?

Tony

johnbirchjar
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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Jul 04, 2018 11:05 pm

Yes,hopefully on the Commander/Classic,(if Electrix World get their bum into gear and send me a replacement R/R,)otherwise I'll be on the Honda Very Happy,see you there,ride safe,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:08 pm

Hi guys,The saga continues.
I have the RR back from Elctrix World,they say it is fine(300W Gen:) making 14.36V with no load,and 13.56V loaded
They seem to think my problem stemmed from poor Quality connectors,so I fit new connectors Very Happy, It made not the slightest difference exclaim, as the RR warms up the volts drop off,oh and even from cold it never registers more than 13.80v even with no load evil,so by the time the engine gets to 80/90o there are not enough volts to keep up with demand,and even with only one H/light on there are only 12.25v.
I wonder if it's the Voltmetre thats at fault? red face,But, that still would not explain the "Drop Off" as the RR warms up.
Is there anyway I can test the Voltmetre without a "Test Metre"?OR, if someone would be kind enough to loan me a RR to see how that performs Very Happy.I await your imput,rgds,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by Anthony Duffield » Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:03 pm

John,

If the volts drop off as it warms up I suspect the alternator insulation is breaking down shorting the windings.

However if it was my problem I would ask an auto electrician to do the following:

A. Measure and record the resistance of the stator windings cold, you will need a good meter for this and the alternator leads must be disconnected from the rest of the bikes wiring, the meter I use for this kind of work is a Fluke 77

B. With the alternator, RR and battery connected as normal run the engine and measure at 2000 RPM the AC three phase voltage, phase to phase the voltage must be the same. Record the readings

C. Once warmed up measure the AC voltage again and record the readings

D. Stop the engine, disconnect the alternator and measure the resistance and record the readings

If the above proves satisfactory i.e. resistance compares hot or cold, AC voltage is the same across all three phases hot or cold, I would next measure the current (amperes) between RR and battery.

The auto electrician will know how to do this, if you want me to explain let me know.

Good luck

Tony

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:19 am

Hi Tony,I never suspected the Alternator red face.
A couple of things happened today you may be able to answer,(A)The 3 wires from the Alternator got very warm,(as did the RR,I mean VERY WARM,like, burning the fingers HOT evil)(B)Then no charging at the battery,disconnect RR and connect Multimetre to the Red & Black wires from the RR,rev engine to 2500/3000rpm 11/12v? (not very promising,)re-connect RR,still no charge at the battery,investigation finds blown fuse,lots of sparks when trying to fit new fuse,disconect RR,insert new fuse,no sparks,re-connect RR,fuse blows,conclusion,short in the RR?
Would this cause the 3 wires from the Alternator to run very warm? rgds,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by Anthony Duffield » Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:59 am

John,

(A)The 3 wires from the Alternator got very warm,(as did the RR,I mean VERY WARM,like, burning the fingers HOT evil)

This indicates shorts in the connections between the alternator and RR

(B)Then no charging at the battery,disconnect RR and connect Multimetre to the Red & Black wires from the RR,rev engine to 2500/3000rpm 11/12v? (not very promising,)re-connect RR,still no charge at the battery,investigation finds blown fuse,lots of sparks when trying to fit new fuse,disconect RR,insert new fuse,no sparks,re-connect RR,fuse blows,conclusion,short in the RR? Would this cause the 3 wires from the Alternator to run very warm?

Section K "Electrical System" of the Commander workshop manual explains how the charging system works and how to test it, it does say not to run the engine with the RR disconnected.

Fault finding and repairing auto electrics is not easy, I would suggest you find someone with the appropriate skill set to help you get the bike back on the road.

Regards
Tony

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:49 pm

Hi Tony, Sounds like good advice,I think I'll do just that Very Happy,many thanks for your input,ride safe,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Aug 15, 2018 11:16 am

Hi Tony,It seems you were right about the Generator,the Stator is s****d evil,I have ordered a re-conditioned one from Graham and am awaiting delivery,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:28 pm

Hi Tony,getting back to your generator,only 220w? from what I can gather,that is what IP2's and Classics produce,while Commander's pump out 330w.
Moving on wink,can anyone tell me if the Stators on the F1& Sport are smaller in size than Commanders?the reason I ask is that there is a company in France selling Commander/F1 Stators but the measurements they give (Ext Dia 93mm. Inner 35mm,Thickness 18) are quite a bit less than mine(Ext Dia,111.5 Inner 50mm. Thickness 35mm)AND,is it possible to take the Flywheel from the IP2 and put it on the Commander? so if push comes to shove I can use the Stator from the Classic(It's naked in there 'cos I have done away with the manual pump cool)rgds,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:51 am

Hi Guys,answering my own question on my previous post (re;swopping fly wheels twix Air cooled and watercooled rotories)a resounding NO exclaim,the bolt holes for the Stators are much further apart on the Watercooled bikes.(bigger Stators,)and if the measurements quoted by the French are to be believed,the F1Stators are a different size again,yet they offer the same Stator for both bikes exclaim,(perhaps something is lost in the translation wink)ride safe,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:05 am

Hi guys,I did a "Post" last night but it seems to have been lost in "Cyber Space" evil.It was a bit long winded so here is an abridged version.
Found a company not to far from me down in the wilds of Essex who will re-wind my Stator for me,and seeing as it was only about 30 miles away I threw a leg over the Honda and delivered it by hand yesterday lunchtime.(Interestingly they seemed to think that the Commander Stator is the same as is fitted to the Honda Gold Wing")Very interesting"
I recieved a phone call THIS AFTERNOON from them to say my Stator can be collected tomorrow.(Now THAT is what I call service exclaim)and the cost was not exorbitant,One Hundred and twenty sov's.
Unfortunately I am off to a Harley rally tomorrow so Tuesday will be the collecting date.
The Company's name is "Westcountry Windings" Units 6&&, Kingstone Farm,CM17 0RB.I will report anon,ride safe,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Mon Sep 03, 2018 11:47 pm

Hi guys,the saga continues,I collected the Stator on Tuesdsay,and remembered to asked what Goldwing model fitted the same,(they seem to think the 1200.)
I also questioned the fact that there was no coating of Laquer on this re-wound Stator(unlike every other Stator I have ever seen)"We never coat ours in Laquer,we think it would prevent the Stator from charging"(or words to that effect,I can't remember what she said verbatim)anyway,I couldn't argue she was the expert wink)
Back to the wilds of Essex,fit Stator,fire the old girl up,13.75v evil,(supposed to be 14.5)Oh bugger exclaim,(and this is with a brand new VCR,)switched on all the electrics,Volts drop to 13v at 4,000rpm(charging system just about holding it's own)went for a 50 mile blast,volts stayed at a steady 13v,decided to risk using the bike for the "Reavers Rally" all went well untill the bike got really warm(105c)then the volts droped off to 12.5,and remained at that for the rest of the trip(there&and back)so I am back to square one evil.
(but first off I will check the accuracy of the Volt Metre fitted to the bike)
Richard made a suggestion a while back,take the "Earth" and the "Live"direct from the VCR to the Battery,(thus by-passing any problems that may be lurking in the Loom wink,)so I shall try that and will report anon,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:46 pm

Well,It would appear the Negus has come up trumps once more Very Happy.Tested the bikes Volt Metre,and it appears to be about 5 volts "slow" and following Richards suggestion,I ran "Earth"& "Live" direct to the battery and "Hey Presto" 14.5v at the battery cool and 13.5v with all the electrics on,"yippee" exclaim.
I am off to a Harley rally(again) Friday,so I will see how things perform when the bike gets nice and warm.ride safe,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Thu Sep 27, 2018 11:33 pm

The saga continues wink,riding back from the Harley rally,I noticed the Volts dropping back to 12.5 after a few miles evil,so it was a very glum J.B returning to Essex.
I checked the charging with the Multimetre,(13.5 with no load,12.5 under load,)so off with the Reg/Rec and back to the supplier(Rex's Speed Shop) for testing(this was Tues;the 18th)recieved a phone call from them Thursday telling me all was well with the R/R and they would be returning it tomorrow(Friday)but I was off to the Isle of Wight Friday so I would deal with it apone my return.
(The members of the Isle of Wight NOC arrange a "Hotel Rally" every year about this time,so I thought I would "give it a go" this year,It was great Very Happy except for the weather,wet and windy evil)
Moving on wink,While I was away I got to thinking about my charging prob:and remembered back in the past about the Fuse Block melting fuses,so when I got back home Monday,I had a quick look and sho'nuff the Ign; fuse had melted exclaim,a quick phone call and a replacement was on it's way Very Happy(hence the "Heads Up" yesterday)Fuse Block arrived Tues morning so that got fitted along with the R/R.A twenty mile test run and the volt's are a constant 14.5 loaded and 13.5 under load.
Hopefully this will be the last posting(at least from me) on this subject,and I have kept you all enthraled with my exploits cool, ride safe,J.B.

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Re: VCR's

Post by johnbirchjar » Sun Oct 07, 2018 10:58 pm

I have now done a few hundred miles since the last post on this subject and all now appears to be well.
I have continually been"tweeking the carbs,and at last have got them about right,after a long 80mph motorway blast both the exhausts are that lovely light grey colour cool,
(and the old girl is returning about 45mpg which is about as good as it gets with our Norton Rotories wink)J.B.

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