more amps

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johnbirchjar
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more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:50 am

Hi guys, guess who? Very Happy,more brain picking in affraid red face.
Looking at the alternators 'twix Classic and Commander,one would assume the latter to be more powerful,(It's twice as big!)more Amps?,but no,they are the same(about 13amps)which, unfortunatly for me, is not enough to keep the battery toped up( 'cos I have now converted the Commander to a 'leclic water pump,)so what with that, the 'leclic fan AND riding with the lights on,13 amps is not enough,so my question is,How to get more amps?Upgrade the VCR?('cos I assume this is what controls the amps into the battery)or have I got this completely wrong,rgds,J.B.

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Richard Negus
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Re: more amps

Post by Richard Negus » Tue Dec 05, 2017 6:36 pm

Hi John,
The Commander generator is rated at 28 amps, more than enough to cope with a 'leccy pump and all the lights.
Where did you see the figure of 13 amps for it?
R.
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BlackIP2
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Re: more amps

Post by BlackIP2 » Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:19 pm

According to physics, watts = amps × volts, and in my IP2 workshop manual the generator is rated at 220w.
That should mean that 220 watts = just over 18 amps x 12 volts.
I think for bike electrical power consumption you'd be better off calculating how much watts in total you are using as opposed to amps? I thought amps is normally used to just calculate what size fuse you put into a circuit?
The Commander uses the Yamaha XJ900 VCR - and the XJ's generator was rated at 252w so should be more than enough to cope with the rotary 220w alternators. My IP2 has the XJ VCR and works fine, though I had to fiddle with the wiring to get the tacho to work.
No doubt the more electrically qualified in the club will be able to clarify, or dare I say, throw more light onto the subject...

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Richard Negus
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Re: more amps

Post by Richard Negus » Tue Dec 05, 2017 11:30 pm

I don't have the benefit of an IP2 Manual to hand, but I always thought that generator had a 180 w output.
On the other hand, the Commander has a much bigger Kokusan generator rated, I think, at around 330 w.
John's Classic now has a Commander engine (and generator) installed.
The bigger generator was chosen for the police Commander so that, at an incident, it could be left with the strobes, lights, and radio running, the engine idling and the radiator fan cycling on and off, without flattening the batteries.
R.
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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:14 am

Hi Richard,the 13amps are what are regestering on the amp metre,(which is wired direct to the battery)even so,
the alternator on the Classic has never poked out enough power for me to run BOTH the H/Lights on dipped beam for the Triumph fairing fitted to said Classic,(this problem came to light soon after I fitted the Triumph Fairing way back in 2006,and it took me quite a while to fathom what the problem was,(one of the downsides to NOT having an amp metre wink ) I then subsiquentley disconnected one,the other to run on dip, and only run both on main beam when filtering,or when riding alone on minor roads,so this was the method that I used over the years to keep successive batteries from going flat evil.
The amp metre was fitted after the second VCR/Electronic Ignition melt down evil(long story)
I don't think the lack of amps is down to the currant VCR,the bike is now on its fourth,and the previous one never charged above 13 amps either exclaim.Any thoughts?rgds,J.B.

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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 11:40 am

Hi guys/Richard,(This is SO embarrassing red face exclaim)My Classic is fitted with VOLT Metre exclaim,NOT an Amp Metre.
Even so,When using the Classic originally, this still doesn't explain the lack of power to keep the battery charged up while running both H/Lights,even on dip beam.
Before fitting the Commander engine the Volt Metre,used to read just over 12v running with ONE H/light on dipped beam with the Classic Alternator.
The Commander Alternator reads bang on 12v with 'leclic pump,Rad Fan and ONE H/Light on dipped beam,but reads under 12v when I switch to both H/Lights on High Beam,(which leads me to think that I will be having flat battery problems evil,or am I worrying needlessly?(I am a bit paranoid about "Flat Batteries" after all the probs:in the early days,caused by the twin H/Lights on the Triumph fairing)Comments please smiley.
Once again, apologies for the earlier miss information(It's an age thing wink)rgds,J.B.

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Richard Negus
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Re: more amps

Post by Richard Negus » Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:11 pm

John,
In standard form, the normal load taken by the P53 electrics is:
Headlamp main beam 60w
or
Daylamps 72w
Ignition 30w approx.
Rear lamps 12w
No plate lamp 4w
Total : 118w
So plenty in hand for the occasional fan, brake lights, indicators, heated grips, rear fog lights, and horn.
I had a voltmeter on my Commander (pre-automotive alternator), wired between the ignition switch and ground, which typically indicated 13 - 13.5 volts during normal running.
What wattage are your twin headlamps?
R
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Re: more amps

Post by BlackIP2 » Wed Dec 06, 2017 10:04 pm

Commander generator, according to the rider's handbook, is rated at 370 watts. Even more power!

johnbirchjar
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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:21 am

Hi Richard,H/Light Bulbs? bog standard 55/60.
Quite some time ago I thought about upgrading to more powerful bulbs but decided against it 'cos of the "Flat Battery" prob's.
I am still wondering if I have been fitting the wrong VCR's(all three of them?surely not)I will have a bit of a "Surf" and see what I come up with wink,I will report anon.J.B.

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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:01 pm

Hi guys,reporting back.
Had a bit of a "surf" and am still none the wiser,no info: on how much VCR's regulate(amps or volts) to the battery,or indeed if some send more than others,so some guidance from you guys would be appreciated.
Going back to one of your previous comments Richard,you stated your Commander showed a 13 or 13.5volts reading with Lights,Fan,Heated Grips,ect;
I ran the bike yesterday and didn't come even close to those readings exclaim, with Fan,Pump and BOTH H/Lights on main beam and the V/Metre registered under 12v,I then ran with just One H/Light on dip and it just crept over the 12v,not even 12.5 evil,so once again I am of the opinion that the problem is with the VCR, 'cos these readings are about the same as I used to get from the Classic with no Pump or Fan to cope with,(albeit,with a much less powerful Alternator),but strange none the less that both Alternators showed almost the same reading's.J.B.
PS,Lots of snow down here in Essex this morning cool.J

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Re: more amps

Post by Dave » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:27 pm

Hi John, i am certainly no expert on electrics, but have you measured the voltage at the battery with a independent meter, in case your voltmeter on the bike is out?, or you can buy cheap digital meters or the traffic light type real cheap to connect up as a temporary double check, i bough a voltage regulater made by Electrex World, [at the time the one they listed was wrong, but they replaced it with the correct one,] and on my Commander it gives around 14+ volts at the battery with lights off, which in my opinion is a bit high, but has caused no problems in the two/three years it's been fitted. Dave

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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:48 am

Hi Dave,Yep,that was one of the first things I did when I first had the flat Battery problems way back in '07 (after fitting the Triumph fairing with it's twin H/Lights.)
The reason for fitting the Volt Metre was because modern VCR's only have 2 wires(not 3 as the early ones fitted by Norton did,) the third one was for the Ignition Light,the omision of this third wire,(hence no Ignition Light) is that one has no idea when ones charging system isn't charging exclaim,(which I found to my cost on more than one occasion evil,)
When I raised the question with the supplier of the 1st replacement VCR of "How do I know when my charging system isn't working?"his answer was "Your Battery goes flat" "Its a bit late by then" was my retort,he then informed me that "No modern VCR's come with 3 wires" which seems to be the case,'cos I have yet to find one,hence the necessity of the fitting of a Volt Metre smiley,J.B.

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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:34 am

Hi guys,I've been on Electrix World web site and it would appear that the information that "No modern VCR's have 3 wires" was a load of c**p exclaim,and it would appear that ALL VCR's have more than two(although they are now called Regulator Rectifiers)also,Electrix World sell RR's for Norton Commander's Very Happy.
I now have a bit of a cheek red face.Have any of you guys got a spare Commando RR lying about in your garage/W/shop that you could loan me so I can experiment with before I shell out £100 + for a new one from E/World? (''cos I am convinced that this is where my lack of amps stems from) a hopefull,J.B.

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Re: more amps

Post by Anthony Duffield » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:14 pm

John,

My Commander has a 3 phase alternator.

3 phase means it has three wires it produces unregulated alternating current (ac) alternator is another word for generator, unregulated because as the engine speed goes up down so does the output from the alternator.

The electrical system on your bike is direct current (dc) for the alternator to charge your dc battery you will need a rectifier a device that changes alternating current to direct current.

So you need something to regulate the output from your alternator so you have a steady output regardless of engine speed and to convert the alternating current to direct current.

Such a combined unit is called a regulator/rectifier, it regulates the output from the alternator and at the same time converts the alternating current to direct current, to avoid getting too technical the regulator/rectifier can also change its output depending on load i.e how many lights you have on or how flat your battery is, more load = higher output less load = lower output.

I changed my regulator/rectifier because I found that it was not regulating properly so purchased a new one from Startright, not finding one on their website this morning nor finding that Andover Norton list one I checked out Yambits (remember the Commander uses a lot of Yamaha items i.e. XJ900F) and found a regulator/rectifier for a XJ900F, copy and paste this into your browser:

https://yambits.co.uk/xj900f-regulator- ... 58613.html

I hope the above helps

Tony

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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:15 pm

Thanks for the info Tony,most helpful.
I will conduct a few more tests to make sure that my problem is with the RR,but I am almost certain that this is where the problem lies,I will report anon, ride safe,J.B.

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Re: more amps

Post by BlackIP2 » Tue Dec 12, 2017 5:42 pm

As for the problem with the ignition light - same problem for me with the Yamaha rectifier unit on my IP2 - try this supplier of warning lights which you simply add into the wiring. Mine's going to be sorted during this winter's rebuild so I can't vouch for its effectiveness yet, but it comes highly recommended from the main Norton owners' club forum.
https://www.improvingclassicmotorcycles ... oducts.htm

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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Dec 13, 2017 12:48 am

Thanks for the info,but I have a Volt metre that doe's all of the above(exept for Oil Pressure wink)ride safe,J.B.

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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Wed Dec 13, 2017 1:59 pm

Hi Black IP2,I don't know if the RR on your bike is located in the same place as it is on Classics(back to back with the Electronic Ignition Box)if so, my advice is to re-locate it,('cos of the heat that RR's generate they tend to cook the E/IgnBox evil)I cooked 3 of each inside 50,000miles before I twiged what the problem was and re-located the RR(It doesn't take me long to work things out Very Happy)
I have run a few tests and am 95% sure my problem is with the RR,ride safe,J.B.

BlackIP2
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Re: more amps

Post by BlackIP2 » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:05 pm

Yes it is and also one of the jobs to do on the winter rebuild!

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Re: more amps

Post by johnbirchjar » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:43 am

Hi Guys,I have more AMP's Very Happy(sort of wink)The story go's like this.I unbolted the VCR,(now called a RR)from the bike frame to get a look at the Model number(didn't disconnect any of the wires though)so I could contact the supplier for some info;(eg what sort of Volt Metre reading should I get from this RR?)bolted the RR back onto the bike,then, because I had been fine tuning the carbs, I took the bike for a test run,not far 7or 8miles?anyway,about half a mile from home on the way back the Volt Metre began to register almost 13v exclaim,now bearing in mind this was with the Rad Fan,Electric Water Pump,AND the H/Lights all switched on,I was amazed,even when the RR was first fitted on the Classic way back in 2012(about18,000miles ago)it has never registered more than 12.5v (even with no lights on,)and back in the day I didn't know any differant and thought this was the norm.
I think must have disturbed something and got a better connection,(I have previuosly tried a new earth wire,made no differance)
Although I am pleased with the extra power,things are still not quite right,'cos I get the same Volt Metre reading when the engine is idling(900rpm)as I get at 3000rpm?I will check the Volt Metre again using the Honda charging system.
I have e-mailed the supplier(unfortunately, Electrix World's tech;department will only comunicate via e-mail,which is a right pain,)and await their reply(I won't hold my breath)I will keep monitoring the situation and keep you all informed(I bet you can't wait for the next riveting instalment Very Happy)ride safe,J.B.

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